Really tough to remove burr in my shop today

[STR]

I was at the Post Office this morning mailing some packages from past jobs I completed and got behind a lady with like 20 things to mail. Anyway, it gave me plenty of time to chit chat and I started talking to this gent benind me. He turned out to be somewhat of a knife nut himself and mentioned that he was trying to sharpen off a stubborn burr before giving up to come to the Post Office.

I should have shut up right there but instead I said, 'bring it by the house and I'll see if I can't get it taken care of for you'. By mid afternoon I was regretting this statement but the deed was done.

The blade is an ATS34 steel. Its a Buck knife. Older one but not too old I think. One I hadn't seen much of in a while. I think it was called the Lightning if I'm not mistaken. Its discontinued I think.

Anyway he wasn't kidding. No matter what I tried it was not losing that burr.

I gave up, finished some other projects in the shop and consented to go to Lowes and run around town with the wife to take a break from it.

While waiting for her while she shopped the local GoodWill store I sat there reflecting the blade off the sun light noting the burr on it big and bold as ever. I'd already done the Razor edge sharpening, the Edge Pro, the Sharpmaker, all the little tricks I knew and had read about and it still showed everytime so while sitting there I figured well, one time a long long while ago I remembered a guy saying that he sharpened his knife in a pinch off the top of the driver side window. I figured what the hey, I've tried everything else I know. So I stropped it a bit at first. Then I sharpened it edge forward on the top just like on stone. All it did really was move the burr back and forth some but it was smaller now. So, I held the blade up more just shy of actually making a cutting stroke into the top of the glass and stropped it trailing the edge lightly on both sides. Next thing I knew the burr was gone. I got home, stropped it on my leather and some flex cut polish paste, used the sun, no burr. Gave it two swipes lightly on each side with the super fine Edge Pro ceramic and its up and running shaving both arms evenly even after flipping the blade and no sign of a burr.

I figured I'd write a post about it and pass it along.

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I got home, stropped it on my leather and some flex cut polish paste, used the sun, no burr. Gave it two swipes lightly on each side with the super fine Edge Pro ceramic and its up and running shaving both arms evenly even after flipping the blade and no sign of a burr.

This indicates the optimal solution would have been to just cut the burr off directly (cutting into a hone) and refinish. Windows tops are just rough finished glass and thus will act as a coarse, but low aggression, ceramic hone. ATS-34 isn't an overly nice steel to sharpen, especially when soft.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

I tried that earlier but what it did was dull the blade to the point it needed resharpened beyond what the strop and the ceramic could bring back up. And of course each time I had to resharpen it using one of the methods above it brought the burr back with it.

The glass on the other hand seemed to just knock off the burr and only the burr and suddenly the strop brought the real edge hiding under that burr back up and the ceramic finished it off. Thats what I'm thinking happened anyway based on what I saw. It was an interesting afternoon. Like you I've come to rather dislike both ATS34 and 154 Cm too due to some stubborn burr formations on them both. To be honest I've not been too happy with any of the ATS34 blades with the exception of the Bos heat treated stuff I have.

STR

 

[thombrogan]

Great find, STR!

What works for me in similar situations (when you get that flippy fin of a burr that won't go away under normal means) is stropping with boron carbide powder until the burr is weird and ragged-looking and flaking off a bit on the strop (I remove the burr remnant from the strop between passes). After that, it's wipe the edge clean with a paper towel and strop with a finer abrasive. So far, it works with 5160, S30V, and VG-10.

 

[LHD]

Man that BC you sold me might as well be magic sharp dust. Its really great in a light mineral oil.

How often do you do the hand sanitizer clean on it?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I tried that earlier but what it did was dull the blade to the point it needed resharpened beyond what the strop and the ceramic could bring back up.

Yes, you just need the bare minimum. I find that on S30V and similar steels it takes 6-12 cuts right into a 800 grit waterstone to remove the ability of the blade to slice newsprint, and this is after I have blunted it down to 5% of optimal sharpness. On the lower wear steels even one cut is enough so you want a really fine and low abrasive stone. I have a really soft waterstone I use. It is natural chinese one, you can actually carve it up with a knife.

Thats what I'm thinking happened anyway based on what I saw.

I'd be interested to see if it happens consistently. I have had at many times blades just refuse to sharpen. I can be in the middle of a run, say two blades which I have sharpened maybe 20 times in a short period of time with no trouble. Then one night a semi-decent movie is on so I figure I'll do another couple of runs and no success. Blade develops a burr and nothing removes it. I try again the next day doing the exact same thing and sharpen it fine.

Like you I've come to rather dislike both ATS34 and 154 Cm too due to some stubborn burr formations on them both.

Yes, it is nice to hone steels like 1095 at 65/66 HRC. Sharpening would be a lot easier if the steels used for knives were all actually suitable for knives, stealing a line from Thom, make everything either bainite-L6 or full hard M2 (and AEB-L for the guys who want stainless). I don't mind sharpening a steel suitable for a scraper when it is used as a scraper but it is sure annoying when it is in a knife.

-Cliff

 

[gud4u]

To be honest I've not been too happy with any of the ATS34 blades with the exception of the Bos heat treated stuff I have.

I've had similar 'chase the burr' sessions with an ATS34 Buck/Strider Tarani blade - which I assume was heat treated by Paul Bos.

I cut off the burr with radical 30 degrees per side edge bevel and started over, DMT'ing the main bevels to just a hint of burr, then finishing with 15 degrees per side micro-bevel. The mistake seems to be allowing a large burr to form in the first place.

 

[LHD]

stealing a line from Thom, make everything either bainite-L6 or full hard M2 (and AEB-L for the guys who want stainless).
-Cliff

HA! . . . .

 

[STR]

I have one Buck/Strider 881 Mini in Bos heat treated ATS34 that I really like but its a combo edge so that may be part of why.

I generally shy away from getting a knife with the ATS34 steel anymore to be honest. I've not had good luck with sharpening it even when there is no problem with the burr formation. I just don't like the edge I get with it compared to other steels. 154CM has been pretty much the same for me and on one or two knives BG42 were very similar. They get what I call the 'decieving' edge where they cut, I mean you can say they are sharp but they never really get to the level I can get VG10, S30V or even 1095 or D2 for what I consider a good slicing every day edge.

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I just don't like the edge I get with it compared to other steels. 154CM has been pretty much the same for me and on one or two knives BG42 were very similar. They get what I call the 'decieving' edge where they cut, I mean you can say they are sharp but they never really get to the level I can get VG10, S30V or even 1095 or D2 for what I consider a good slicing every day edge.

It makes sense that VG-10 gets a better sharpening responce as it has much less molybdenum and some cobalt, so you would expect better edge stability, but it is rare to see praise for D2 in that regard. A lot of this comes from geometry as well. Fallkniven and Spyderco really run very thin and acute edges in their knives and they tend to come with high initial sharpness. ATS-34/154CM is often used in "tacticals" which don't have knife like edges.

You might want to try RWL34 or CPM-154CM as these are P/M versions of 154CM. The response will be much more consistent because there is a better distribution of carbides. With some of the high carbide steels I think there are times when you just have the luck that the edge intersects a large run of carbide aggregates and there is no way anything will sharpen that so it will form a burr until you hone it back to actual steel.

Consider :

Now imagine an edge which intersects this along the top and has to run through all those massive carbides and then imagine an edge which runs along the middle and is basically in carbide free steel. These will have little in common. I think this also explains why I have seen random burr formation in those steels because you are just hopping from one carbide dense patch to another.

Image taken from :

Messerklingen und Stahl
Autor: Roman Landes
2. Auflage, Wieland Verlag, Bruckmühl, Germany.
Copyright 2006

-Cliff

 

[STR]

Yeah you are probably pretty close to what is going on there but I just generally go by what seems to work and what doesn't for me. I've been very pleased with the slicing edges I get on my D2 knives. The ones I've had from Bob Dozier and Gene Ingram are also very good slicers with nice aggressive edges. Edges I rarely see on an ATS34 blade. Thats all I was meaning. I can sit and sharpen two blades, one in D2 and one in ATS34 and using the same stones get two different type edges and as you say geometry plays a lot in that but its also what you describe in carbide placement and perhaps just the general element ingredients in the steel itself that give you that final edge. It always seems to me that the ATS34 steel is a finer grained or that the edge is always more of a push cutting type vs slicing and for an EDC I like being able to do some slicing as well as pushing so one that takes an edge that will do both well is preferred for my uses.

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Yes, I like D2 as an aggressive slicing steel. It has massive primary carbides, 440C is the same. Some of the carbides are from the as-cast state and are 40-50 microns in length. I have a really nice D2 blade by Sorg. Very thin stock, full grind, you can sharpen it an an acute and low grit and it will slice for a very long time. Krein does really nice grinds for D2 as well.

-Cliff

 

[thombrogan]

How often do you do the hand sanitizer clean on it?

Barely ever. I just wipe metal flakes away by hand and then thoroughly wash my hands.

If you contact Eileen Henson at ESK/Ceradyne and write up a purchase order, you, too, can have a mega-stash of magic sharp dust. That's if you ever run out of the two ounces you bought.

 

[LHD]

Did you guys ever nail down the best application amount?

 

[HoB]

That reflects my experience with 420HC, which is why I dislike that particular steel (both Bucks aswell). I have only one blade in ATS-34 from Gerber and must say it takes a nice edge and holds it too. Amazing what lies in the heat treat.

 

[darkestthicket]

ats-34 is an evil metal. very sturdy though