Reasons for discontinued knives?

D

dpsk

Joined
Nov 7, 2019
Messages
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Just wondering why Buck discontinued the Mesa and Reaper knives? I've seen videos where they chipped while being used to baton wood. However, it seems to me that in those cases the knives were used for something they really weren't designed for. Both seemed like nice designs overall, but maybe got a bad rap because of those failures.
Anyone here recall any more specifics on those two knives?
 
Low sales and increased production costs at/for the price point are two potential reasons.
There are other potential reasons, of course.

Personally, I feel any "reviewer"/self proclaimed "expert" (note quotes) who thinks/says a knife has to be able to withstand batoning and other abuse does not know his ... other term for "donkey" ... from a hole in the ground, has less than no knowledge of what he speaks, has less than zero credibility, or honor, and most likely blames everyone but themself for all their personal and business failures.

I can't understand anyone possessing an operational brain swallowing their BS, or wasting their time listening to them.
 
Probably low sales volume.
I was hoping they would come out with something new in that category myself.
 
makes little sense to occupy labor and machining and floor space etc on a product that doesnt sell well or isnt moving well or doesnt bring in good revenue, etc.

I have no idear if it did or didnt only Buck management would know this. most times product fade away, it's due to low sales or low revenue on sales. there is other possible reasons such as high warranty returns as one example. keep in mind this is guesses, only Buck knows why and what etc. in the end Buck knows what they are doing.
 
afishhunter said:
Low sales and increased production costs at/for the price point are two potential reasons.
There are other potential reasons, of course.

Personally, I feel any "reviewer"/self proclaimed "expert" (note quotes) who thinks/says a knife has to be able to withstand batoning and other abuse does not know his ... other term for "donkey" ... from a hole in the ground, has less than no knowledge of what he speaks, has less than zero credibility, or honor, and most likely blames everyone but themself for all their personal and business failures.

I can't understand anyone possessing an operational brain swallowing their BS, or wasting their time listening to them.
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I completely agree, which is why I have a hatchet, a machete, and a folding saw. However, I'm certainly glad that those YouTube self proclaimed "experts" are willing to break their knives to demonstrate what the knife is actually capable of doing - so I don't have to. :D In my opinion, neither the Mesa nor the Reaper have the correct grind or steel to be used for even moderate batoning on a regular basis.
 
The Reaper and Mesa were both Walmart exclusives weren't they? From what I have seen in past exclusives these are sold for a limited time and then discontinued and replaced with another model. Another Walmart exclusive was the 715 Ascend, which is no longer sold either. When you see a model you really like, just gotta grab it up while it's still on the shelves. And as for those reviews, these knives were not designed for batoning. Recurve blades excel at chopping.
 
RevolverGuy said:
The Reaper and Mesa were both Walmart exclusives weren't they? From what I have seen in past exclusives these are sold for a limited time and then discontinued and replaced with another model. Another Walmart exclusive was the 715 Ascend, which is no longer sold either. When you see a model you really like, just gotta grab it up while it's still on the shelves. And as for those reviews, these knives were not designed for batoning. Recurve blades excel at chopping.
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Now that makes a lot of sense.
 
RevolverGuy said:
The Reaper and Mesa were both Walmart exclusives weren't they? From what I have seen in past exclusives these are sold for a limited time and then discontinued and replaced with another model. Another Walmart exclusive was the 715 Ascend, which is no longer sold either. When you see a model you really like, just gotta grab it up while it's still on the shelves. And as for those reviews, these knives were not designed for batoning. Recurve blades excel at chopping.
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no not quite. the 715 was sold by other dealers such as smkw. just bought one. the walmart version has a different handle, but same knife.

the reaper was sold by all the different dealers as well such as bladehq and c&c as examples. walmart had a wood handle version for them.

the mesa is also another regular Buck knife, sold by everyone like the others, the sentry. walmart version was without the blade coating and with a plain edge blade and micarta handle and the oddball plastic sheath.

of these 3 the mesa was the most exclusive to walmart without a doubt, and almost a completely new knife....but the 715 and reaper werent even close to a walmart only knife other than the handles.
 
dpsk said:
Just wondering why Buck discontinued the Mesa and Reaper knives? I've seen videos where they chipped while being used to baton wood. However, it seems to me that in those cases the knives were used for something they really weren't designed for. Both seemed like nice designs overall, but maybe got a bad rap because of those failures.
Anyone here recall any more specifics on those two knives?
Click to expand...

Opinions will differ on this.

IMO, the fatal flaw of those knives was the hollow grind.

It's worth remembering that the first Buck knives were saber/flat ground (as were most fixed blades of the 40s and 50s) and that the hollow grind was popularized by Bob Loveless and later picked up by Buck. Leroy Remer then advanced using the hollow grind to produce aesthetic grind lines to make beautiful looking blades.

IMO, hollow grind look great and the cut meat really well, so are very good for hunting knives but less good for bushcraft/survival or camp blades, where working with wood (including splitting wood) are common uses that favor either full flat or saber/flat grinds.

The Reaper was derived from the Ron Hood Thug collaboration (which also included the Hoodlum and Punk). Ron Hood certainly designed his knives to be batonned and eventually the Thug had a flat grind as did the Hoodlum and Punk.

The Mesa was derived from the Compadre camp knife and the Compadre was a part of a collection that included a dedicated froe. So, perhaps one could argue that Buck hoped that people would baton with a specially dedicated froe and not the Compradre (or Mesa). Be that as it may, splitting wood with a knife has been something that's going on for centuries and long before Mors Kohanski (RIP, btw) made it popular again.

Given the ongoing popularity of Becker, ESEE, Fallkniven, Condor and Mora fixed blades for bushcraft and survival and given how great Buck's 420HC is (and I love it), I would think that the Buck Reaper (which I own) and Mesa would have a much, much, much longer run in the market if they had been produced as full flat knives (or better, saber flat). They would be price competitive to Condor and Mora with great steel and would have undercut the Becker, ESEE and Fallkniven price points.

I should add that the swedge (false upper edge) on the Reaper (and Mesa) is another fatal flaw for a bushcraft/survival blade that will certainly be used to split (and drill) wood.

I raise these points in hope that Buck will revive these knives. They just need to be full flat ground and they need to loose the swedge.
 
GPyro said:
And make it with 5160, and a leather sheath.
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If they made it (the Reaper) with 5160, they would be recreating the Thug, which isn't a bad thing. If they could do that and keep the price point in the same street price range as the Mesa and Reaper, that would be great.

Personally, I would be happy with the old low street price and in 420HC. IMO, there is room for a low price point, USA made reasonably tough stainless survival knife.
 
Thug's and Punk's are still available. I have 4 or 5. Only the first year was a hollow grind. Selkirk line is flat grind. SK/Buck 104 flat grind. I think there was a full flat grind 119 also from C&C.
 
Pinnah,
That's cool.
But I don't think I would want a stainless survival knife.
Spring steel is less likely to break. I can always use my knife to make a spear.
I can beat on a carbon steel knife if I HAD to.

But these are all subjective opinions and not necessarily the right ones.

I think there's room in the market for Buck to make that, or is the Thug overpriced?
 
GPyro said:
And make it with 5160, and a leather sheath.
Click to expand...
I dont mind the cordura or nylon type sheaths like the reaper had used myself to keep it cheaper, but yeah thicker stock and different grind and 5160.....all win there.
 
GPyro said:
Pinnah,
That's cool.
But I don't think I would want a stainless survival knife.
Spring steel is less likely to break. I can always use my knife to make a spear.
I can beat on a carbon steel knife if I HAD to.

But these are all subjective opinions and not necessarily the right ones.

I think there's room in the market for Buck to make that, or is the Thug overpriced?
Click to expand...

Subjective? Several of the comparison charts and tests have shown 420hc at 57-58 hrc to be fairly high in toughness and more than any of the other stainless grades outside the 420 class. Not as high as 5160 but not to far behind and even closer to 1095. Even then I still wouldn’t use it as some of the bushcraft videos do. I’ve used 420hc for 30 years now and haven’t broken or ruined a blade yet. In a survival situation I would avoid beating on or using any knife in a manner that might break it especially if that’s all I had. There’s other ways to make wood in smaller pieces and I want my knife for cutting chores. I’ve had a few bad experiences with non stainless knives due to corrosion and I prefer stainless in the outdoors.
 
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