Furthur to my concealed carry (inside waistband) question, does anyone have advice or use history of the Recondo by SOG? I appreciate the help and am new here; don't want to post too much but my other post is getting alot of reads and not many bits of advice. Thanks, Ed
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Recondo Question
- Thread starter Ed45
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Ron from SOG would be able to answer your question, but I think he mentioned he was going on vacation. If you search for his name here and send him e-mail, I'm sure he'd be more than happy to provide you with information "from the horse's mouth," so to speak.
You could also ask this question in the SOG knives forum.
You could also ask this question in the SOG knives forum.
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Actually, the Recondo is quite a new knife for SOG and as such has gotten a fair bit of attention. If you go to the SOG forum and just do a search on the Recondo you will find quite a bit was written over the last couple of months. I've never handled one, but for the most part the reviews have been quite good. Many consider it an excellent value considering that it is made out of one of the new premium steels - BG42 - but still sports a reasonable price. (under $100 at discountknives.com)
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here's something you might want to take a look at:
http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/knives/recondo.html
--Josh
http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/knives/recondo.html
--Josh
Thanks, I found that review on a search but don't know exactly what it means. The brittleness of the blade bothers me but I wonder if it has been corrected or just comes with that steel and also if it is related to both the coated and non-coated blades. I'll search the SOG forum also. Ed
Cliff Stamp
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Ed :
Which part?
The toughness is a function of both the steel type (high carbon, high alloy stainless) and the geometry of the blade (hollow grind).
Nitride coatings can have adverse effects on some steel types, but I doubt that was a significant factor in this case.
-Cliff
Which part?
The toughness is a function of both the steel type (high carbon, high alloy stainless) and the geometry of the blade (hollow grind).
Nitride coatings can have adverse effects on some steel types, but I doubt that was a significant factor in this case.
-Cliff
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In regard to the "brittleness" issue, you must ask yourself, do you want a knife that is hard enough to hold an edge really well, even if it means the knife may break if it is smashed with a sledge hammer, or do you want to sacrifice edge holding ot the point that the knife will bend rather than break even if it were run over by a bulldozer on granite?
Cliff's test showed that the Recondo will break under extreme abuse, but there are no other data points to show how hard you could push the knife in extreme normal use. All we know is that the knife's ability to withstand impact was exceded, but we don't know by how much, or even really how much it was. Any knife can be heat treated to bend before it breaks, the question if whether that is really your performance criteria.
Cliff's test showed that the Recondo will break under extreme abuse, but there are no other data points to show how hard you could push the knife in extreme normal use. All we know is that the knife's ability to withstand impact was exceded, but we don't know by how much, or even really how much it was. Any knife can be heat treated to bend before it breaks, the question if whether that is really your performance criteria.
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Hi ED -- this isn't much of a response, but maybe it will help a bit. I handled a Recondo at a B&M store a few months ago. I confess that I tend to fall in the group of knife knuts who like some "heft" to knives, particularly fixed blade knives.
This preference gave me a fairly negative first impression of the Recondo. I was truly amazed that a knife of it's size could be as light as it is. Given my predilections, I immediately wondered if it could possibly be strong enough to "work" as a FB knife. I did recognize that the knife was very well balanced, and the handle was reasonably comfortable. I think if one wishes to conceal a FB knife, that the Recondo's slim shape and light weight could make it ideal for that purpose.
As someone else suggested, you'll have to decide how much weight to give Cliff's destructive tests. You need to be as realistic as possible about the uses to which you plan to put your knife. Also, your comfort is going to be important. I unfortunately remember zip about the sheath the Recondo came with. If one doesn't like the production sheath, Normark can make great, concealable Concealex sheaths at a reasonable price.
Most of the Sebenzenistas rave about the BG-42 steel used by CRK. It isn't as hard as the SOG variety, but is still the same steel. It is becoming more and more popular in the custom arena also. Ron of SOG has repeatedy stated that the company aims for an RC of 62, not 64. Until Cliff's tests, and the breaking of the tip off a Recondo that was repeatedly stabbed into wood then twisted loose, I believe Ron said they'd had no blade failures reported. I do think that you need to accept that it isn't going to continue to exist if used as a prybar. If you anticpate banging on the blade a lot, I think there are other knives you could consider.
To end this -- I know you're relieved -- if the primary purpose of the knife you're planning to buy is self defense, I would suggest that you check out the Boker Mini-Smatchet, if blades sharpened on both sides are legal in your area. Jerry Van Cook kind of went bonkers over that knife in the review he did for TK about a year ago. It's blade is wider than the Recondo, but is probably a bit shorter as well. I know if it were legal here, I'd have one. Hoep this helps.
This preference gave me a fairly negative first impression of the Recondo. I was truly amazed that a knife of it's size could be as light as it is. Given my predilections, I immediately wondered if it could possibly be strong enough to "work" as a FB knife. I did recognize that the knife was very well balanced, and the handle was reasonably comfortable. I think if one wishes to conceal a FB knife, that the Recondo's slim shape and light weight could make it ideal for that purpose.
As someone else suggested, you'll have to decide how much weight to give Cliff's destructive tests. You need to be as realistic as possible about the uses to which you plan to put your knife. Also, your comfort is going to be important. I unfortunately remember zip about the sheath the Recondo came with. If one doesn't like the production sheath, Normark can make great, concealable Concealex sheaths at a reasonable price.
Most of the Sebenzenistas rave about the BG-42 steel used by CRK. It isn't as hard as the SOG variety, but is still the same steel. It is becoming more and more popular in the custom arena also. Ron of SOG has repeatedy stated that the company aims for an RC of 62, not 64. Until Cliff's tests, and the breaking of the tip off a Recondo that was repeatedly stabbed into wood then twisted loose, I believe Ron said they'd had no blade failures reported. I do think that you need to accept that it isn't going to continue to exist if used as a prybar. If you anticpate banging on the blade a lot, I think there are other knives you could consider.
To end this -- I know you're relieved -- if the primary purpose of the knife you're planning to buy is self defense, I would suggest that you check out the Boker Mini-Smatchet, if blades sharpened on both sides are legal in your area. Jerry Van Cook kind of went bonkers over that knife in the review he did for TK about a year ago. It's blade is wider than the Recondo, but is probably a bit shorter as well. I know if it were legal here, I'd have one. Hoep this helps.
Cliff Stamp
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Steve :
This is misleading on two counts. First off it implies that you cannot get greater toughness/ductility than BG-42 without losing edge holding, which you easily can, just use a non-stainless steel. Secondly, it implies that a sledgehammer was used to fault the edge. Neither is true.
In fact, if a sledgehammer (say 8 lbs) was used instead of the pipe I would assume that the Recondo might have suffered less damage when I was holding it. First off the contact area would have been much greater. Secondly the hammer would have been moving *much* slower than the pipe and thus the impact time would have been much longer, and thus directly lowered the impulse the blade recieved.
You have to consider not just the momentum but the velocity, a faster impact can be worse even with a lighter object because of a lower impact time, especially if there is difference in hardness (the latter is not relevant here). It would however have been worse on the blade in regards to the lateral impact while it was stuck in the wood.
The pipe to edge impacts, the tip and main body prying would all be exceeded in many utility uses as noted in the review. The hard lateral impacts (when the blade was stuck in the wood) you would only be concerned about from a combat point of view if you wanted the blade to be block a pipe / chain or similar. Or if you wanted the blade to be able to be pounded on with a very hard object, like a heavy rock for example.
There are now estimates of impact energies in the review and they will be present from this point on in more detail. As to how much they exceed the breaking point, this is unknown, except for a wide margin (different swing techniques with the same impact object, ~2x difference in impact energy). I might narrow this down in the future by using different length impact bars of the same material (mild steel, probably hot rolled).
Some parts are still difficult to quantify with any degree of precision, for example heavy tip work in wood. A snap at 3/4" penetration in pine is very different than oak, and the same wood will give very different results if seasoned vs fresh vs baked. I might switch to just breaking them in a vice under an applied load later on, or doing this on a set of knives and seeing how it correlates to various woods to see just how much variance is present.
Bugs3x :
The handle is skeletonized which greatly reduces the weight.
-Cliff
This is misleading on two counts. First off it implies that you cannot get greater toughness/ductility than BG-42 without losing edge holding, which you easily can, just use a non-stainless steel. Secondly, it implies that a sledgehammer was used to fault the edge. Neither is true.
In fact, if a sledgehammer (say 8 lbs) was used instead of the pipe I would assume that the Recondo might have suffered less damage when I was holding it. First off the contact area would have been much greater. Secondly the hammer would have been moving *much* slower than the pipe and thus the impact time would have been much longer, and thus directly lowered the impulse the blade recieved.
You have to consider not just the momentum but the velocity, a faster impact can be worse even with a lighter object because of a lower impact time, especially if there is difference in hardness (the latter is not relevant here). It would however have been worse on the blade in regards to the lateral impact while it was stuck in the wood.
The pipe to edge impacts, the tip and main body prying would all be exceeded in many utility uses as noted in the review. The hard lateral impacts (when the blade was stuck in the wood) you would only be concerned about from a combat point of view if you wanted the blade to be block a pipe / chain or similar. Or if you wanted the blade to be able to be pounded on with a very hard object, like a heavy rock for example.
There are now estimates of impact energies in the review and they will be present from this point on in more detail. As to how much they exceed the breaking point, this is unknown, except for a wide margin (different swing techniques with the same impact object, ~2x difference in impact energy). I might narrow this down in the future by using different length impact bars of the same material (mild steel, probably hot rolled).
Some parts are still difficult to quantify with any degree of precision, for example heavy tip work in wood. A snap at 3/4" penetration in pine is very different than oak, and the same wood will give very different results if seasoned vs fresh vs baked. I might switch to just breaking them in a vice under an applied load later on, or doing this on a set of knives and seeing how it correlates to various woods to see just how much variance is present.
Bugs3x :
The handle is skeletonized which greatly reduces the weight.
-Cliff
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Hi Ed,
Yes, I'm on vacation, but I'll still frequent the forums as I have time.
The one thing that resulted from Cliff's reviews is that the knife should not be subjected to lashing with a steel pipe.
There are many people using this knife very successfully. Here's a letter from a satisfied US Army Ranger.
To date, I've now received two of these knives back broken (in one year of brisk selling): Cliff's and one from a fellow forumite with a broken tip.
You may venture over to the SOG Forum and ask any question you'd like.
Yes, I'm on vacation, but I'll still frequent the forums as I have time.
The one thing that resulted from Cliff's reviews is that the knife should not be subjected to lashing with a steel pipe.
There are many people using this knife very successfully. Here's a letter from a satisfied US Army Ranger.
To date, I've now received two of these knives back broken (in one year of brisk selling): Cliff's and one from a fellow forumite with a broken tip.
You may venture over to the SOG Forum and ask any question you'd like.
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- 2,395
Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
This is misleading on two counts. First off it implies that you cannot get greater toughness/ductility than BG-42 without losing edge holding, which you easily can, just use a non-stainless steel. Secondly, it implies that a sledgehammer was used to fault the edge. Neither is true.
Cliff:
I doubt quite seriously if anyone was mislead. I think it safe to conclude that Ed45 had read the test, and if anyone thought I was implying that there was no way to get tougher steal with equal edge holding to BG-42, I would be entirely amazed and bemused.
The bottom line is that one blade broke and a completely dissimilar comparison blade bent under what can only be characterized as wildly uncontrolled circumstances. You went from driving the blade through wood and hitting it with a pipe while hand held (interesting), to driving the blade into a board and hitting it with a pipe (huh?). That is so far out of the frame of my own concept of knife performance that you might as well have gone from splitting wood to blowing the knife up with dynamite.
What conclusion should be drawn from the damage to the little stainless knife? Since it was thin and soft enough to bend before the stresses built up to a point that the blade would shatter, that anybody with a hard tempered BG-42 tactical blade should trade it in on a thin stainless fillet blade for greater durability?(FNGs: the answer is no, you should not.)
The information you gave on cutting performance, on the other hand, was extremely useful to me. Frequently manufacturers grind thick edges on knives to ensure durability regardless of, shall we say variations in heat treatment. Sometimes you can fix this with sharpening, sometimes you cannot. I will make it a point to check edge thickness on a real exemple before I buy one of the Recondo-based Field Knives due for release next year. Thanks for the info!
Cliff Stamp
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Steve :
The variance in the impact energies was rather low for reasons I have described in detail in the main review thread. In retrospect I should have made some effort to quantify this a bit more, and provide the relevant details in the review. Most of them are now present, and I will be more specific about such issues from now on since concerns were raised.
This was done mainly because of the spine serrations on the rear of the grip of the Recondo. They were digging readily into my palm and I was having trouble exerting enough force to resist the impact due to the damage it was causing my hand during the ipacts. Thus, after the first hit, the impacts tended to just knock the knife around as I could/would not hold it in place due to the low ergonomics.
Now of course I could have filed off the spine serrations, however considering how difficult hardened stainless steel is to work, it would have taken far too much time, so instead of trying to hold the knife in place I simply used a piece of wood to do the same thing. In retrospect I should have just found a decent rawhide glove, or simply wrapped the handle.
Assuming a decently shaped handle, I would have no problem holding onto the knife, as I have done it before under more forceful impacts.
I later on broke a 440A class blade that was far thicker, it easily resisted far greater impacts than the BG-42 Recondo. Yes, the thinner nature of the fillet knife did enhance its durability (for that one particular aspect) however it would have fared better than the Recondo even with the exact geometry due to the much greater impact toughness and increased ductility. The flexibility also did nothing in regards to the edge to resist damage, as the blade cannot flex in that plane.
Based on conversations with a few makers, the idea seems to be that it is <b>far</b> worse to grind a high performance edge on the blade and have people complain about damage, than to suggest to a few people who want better cutting performance to grind a little metal away. As you noted however, no matter how you sharpen, unless you are willing to work on the primary grind, you are not going to get performance comparable to something like Boye produces - but then again he sells to a much narrower audience and he doesn't need to be as concerned about the durability issue.
-Cliff
The variance in the impact energies was rather low for reasons I have described in detail in the main review thread. In retrospect I should have made some effort to quantify this a bit more, and provide the relevant details in the review. Most of them are now present, and I will be more specific about such issues from now on since concerns were raised.
This was done mainly because of the spine serrations on the rear of the grip of the Recondo. They were digging readily into my palm and I was having trouble exerting enough force to resist the impact due to the damage it was causing my hand during the ipacts. Thus, after the first hit, the impacts tended to just knock the knife around as I could/would not hold it in place due to the low ergonomics.
Now of course I could have filed off the spine serrations, however considering how difficult hardened stainless steel is to work, it would have taken far too much time, so instead of trying to hold the knife in place I simply used a piece of wood to do the same thing. In retrospect I should have just found a decent rawhide glove, or simply wrapped the handle.
Assuming a decently shaped handle, I would have no problem holding onto the knife, as I have done it before under more forceful impacts.
I later on broke a 440A class blade that was far thicker, it easily resisted far greater impacts than the BG-42 Recondo. Yes, the thinner nature of the fillet knife did enhance its durability (for that one particular aspect) however it would have fared better than the Recondo even with the exact geometry due to the much greater impact toughness and increased ductility. The flexibility also did nothing in regards to the edge to resist damage, as the blade cannot flex in that plane.
Based on conversations with a few makers, the idea seems to be that it is <b>far</b> worse to grind a high performance edge on the blade and have people complain about damage, than to suggest to a few people who want better cutting performance to grind a little metal away. As you noted however, no matter how you sharpen, unless you are willing to work on the primary grind, you are not going to get performance comparable to something like Boye produces - but then again he sells to a much narrower audience and he doesn't need to be as concerned about the durability issue.
-Cliff
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Hi Cliff,
I've been meaning to ask you about this. Thanks for reminding me. If a "hand tool" is being used to the extent that it is very painful to the user or that you can no longer handle it (as described above and in your review), would it be wise to say the hand tool is being used beyond its intended purpose?
Also, what grip is being used if your palm is resting noticeably on the "thumb ramp"? The thumb ramp is only there as an aid in handling the knife, not for aiding abusive activity. If one's palm (or thumb) is in pain, the user is overusing that feature.
I've been meaning to ask you about this. Thanks for reminding me. If a "hand tool" is being used to the extent that it is very painful to the user or that you can no longer handle it (as described above and in your review), would it be wise to say the hand tool is being used beyond its intended purpose?
Also, what grip is being used if your palm is resting noticeably on the "thumb ramp"? The thumb ramp is only there as an aid in handling the knife, not for aiding abusive activity. If one's palm (or thumb) is in pain, the user is overusing that feature.
Cliff Stamp
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Ron :
No it would not. Using the same logic all handles are ergonomic, and by extension no aspect at all can be critized for poor performance. You have to look at the complete picture. The problem is frequently one of conflicting design elements.
I used a hammer grip for the majority of the impact work, but I tried various grips before moving on to the wood.
-Cliff
No it would not. Using the same logic all handles are ergonomic, and by extension no aspect at all can be critized for poor performance. You have to look at the complete picture. The problem is frequently one of conflicting design elements.
I used a hammer grip for the majority of the impact work, but I tried various grips before moving on to the wood.
-Cliff