Related to preselling at shows, et al.

Kohai999

Kohai999

Second Degree Cutter
Joined
Jul 15, 2003
Messages
12,554
Hey Guys,

A couple things that I felt were worth mentioning, differently from the other threads.

Knifemakers are generally lousy businessmen, in addition to many of them being virtually unemployable in the "real" world.

You can't "tell" them anything, the best you can do is "suggest" when they ask.

Generally, what the good ones are is some of the best craftsmen/artists on the planet, anywhere. The last 20 years have been producing historically, what has not been done before, and making what has been done before better, and more artistically varied.

Being lousy businessmen, they tend to go where the money is "right now". That's because they might be needing the money for a mortgage, surgery, or tuition. None of us can blame them for that.

How do I know what I am talking about? Because I had a knife shop before the "internet boom" in Seattle, Wa on Pike Street, and the makers that I would buy from told me things like this.

As to the slagging of dealers, just like makers, some are a******s, and some are righteous people. I fit somewhere in the middle. I never got less than 15% discount, and never better than 25%. This was dependant on me buying 3-7 knives from a maker at a time, which I imagine most of you do not do.

Until all knifemakers put up a website, and update it very regularly, what I see the dealers, especially the internet dealers doing for customers and makers alike is putting there product out there for all the world to see, 24-7. That is worth whatever the maker feels it is, it does us all a favor.

What I have heard from 2 different makers today, is that these dealers also separate the maker from the customer, and are very stingy with the sharing of information. I would say that is wrong on the part of the dealer, and should not be accepted by either customer or maker.

In some cases however, this is a good thing, because more than a few makers can be referred to as "antisocial", and maybe the dealer should do what they can to "limit" personal exposure to a maker.

Just some random thoughts, if you want to try beating me up, give it a shot, but I am fast, and smart, and in this case, not entirely wrong.

Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
What I have heard from 2 different makers today, is that these dealers also separate the maker from the customer, and are very stingy with the sharing of information
Click to expand...

In some cases however, this is a good thing, because more than a
few makers can be referred to as "antisocial", and maybe the dealer should do what they can to "limit" personal exposure to a maker.
Click to expand...


I think this is more accurate than many on here will admit, I know a few makers that I consider very personable that I buy from regularly, and I'm sure there are a lot of others out there. On the other hand, there are some makers that are better judged by their work alone, and even talking to them would turn you off so much you wouldn't want their work. I have had this experience as well. In fact I did sell the piece! In constrast, I've had makers decribed as unapproachable who were in fact very friendly and accomadating to me.
 
I have never run into a maker that was downright nasty. Some did lack social skills, but that is to be expected. Not everyone is an extrovert. I am also sure that some are jerks, but I haven't run into any.

As to many of them being unemployable in the real world, I guess there would be some, but most are only part time makers and actually do have other jobs that pay the bills. In fact, the percentage that are full time knifemakers is very small.

I think many of your statements tend to generalize too much.
 
Keith,

I find in forum discussions, that it is better to start with generalizations and then narrow the scope once the postings find a natural rhythym.

I'll give a couple of examples to be more specific.

Bob Lum is generally credited as the creator of the "Americanized" Tanto, and his skills in what he does are exceptionally good. I believe he was a photo lab technician, but Knives 2003 lists him as a full time maker.

I have spoken to Bob on the telephone, and in person at shows and found him to be curt, dismissive and generally unpleasant. What I have heard from other people supports my experiences. I own two of his knives, one I traded a dealer for at the OKCA show in 2000, the other I got from a guy on BF. I wanted his knives, but it was too difficult to deal with him in person, for me.
Not saying that he is a bad person, at all, just saying that in MY experience, a dealer was the way to go, and I would not have that situation any other way.

Bob Crowder is a part time maker from Montana. He is heavily involved with the Montana Knifemaker's Association, has refereed softball, worked in a mill, substitute teacher....He is by far and away a giving, caring person who is a pleasure to deal with, and makes some of the most beautiful and affordable fixed blades to be found, anywhere.

You can find Bob Lum's knives from a few dealers, and at shows he sells out very quickly.

It is rare to find Bob Crowder's knives on the aftermarket, and even on Sunday at shows, Bob Crowder's knives can still be had. I am sure that this is a situation of supply and demand, but both makers are very desireable in my book, as far as knives go. Just that one is pleasant and quite outgoing, the other might be better to go through a dealer for, depending on your expectations and individual attitude.

Does this make sense, and is it specific enough to support what I was saying before?

Regards,

Steven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
Keith,

I find in forum discussions, that it is better to start with generalizations and then narrow the scope once the postings find a natural rhythym.

I'll give a couple of examples to be more specific.
Click to expand...
Neither one of your 'examples' convinced me that Knifemakers are terrible businessmen and unemployable in the "real" world.

I have found to the contrary, 'generally' knifemakers are superb businesspeople and are absolutely employable in any field they chose to develop expertise in.

Sorry to disagree.......................
 
Have the many " superb" businessmen that you have personally done business with delivered on the date that they said they would? And don't be making excuses for them either.

I am a graphic artist with a small company. If I don't get the work done on time, everybody in my company from the owner down to the receptionist suffers.

I don't plan on continuing the name names games needlessly, but, if you are dealing with makers who are the paragon of businessmen, great. That is not the case with me. For one thing, and this is a personal observation, many of the makers that I have seen charge too much, or too little. Disagree all you want.

Regards,

Steven Garsson
 
Steven, I don't doubt for one minute that there are many examples of makers that would be better of not dealing directly with their customers. Many just don't have good interpersonal skills.

When you say that you can't tell them anything, I think that this depends. I am sure that this is the case with some, but I have found that many will listen if you can show them you know what you are talking about.

A lot of makers are getting to be better businessmen. This is due to the fact that many knifemaking organizations have instruction in this area. It is also now being discussed much more in the knifemaker areas on forums. This has helped many makers to improve their business acumen.
 
Keith,

One of the things that was brought up in the pre-selling thread was why makers even conduct business with dealers. I was trying to say that maybe some of the makers that did realized that they did/do not have the social skills to represent themselves fairly as makers.

Most of the makers I know, and this is not gross generalization, are fairly stubborn. I am not in the slightest saying that they will not change, or are unwilling to listen. I am saying that I cannot TELL them anything, they will listen to an impassioned plea from time to time.

Getting better at business, yes, thank the Almighty, makers ARE GETTING better at business, but I think that the online dealers are probably better businessmen than the makers they represent, is that a fair assumption?

Regards,

Steven Garsson
 
I have also found all the makers I dealt with aggreeable and personable. Some are obvious introverts who are uncomfortable - or unskilled at - hawking their ware. Some would much rather be in the shop, and it shows, but all those I've delt with seemed to be doing their best.

Some are superb salesmen, in a courteous, high class way (not in the sleazy 2nd hand car dealership way). I'm sure some would be better off not delt with directly, but I've never met them.
 
My experience with custom knifemakers has been that only a small fraction are irritable and hard to talk to. The greater majority are very friendly.
 
Kohai999 said:
Getting better at business, yes, thank the Almighty, makers ARE GETTING better at business, but I think that the online dealers are probably better businessmen than the makers they represent, is that a fair assumption?
Click to expand...

I would agree with this statement in all but a few cases. There are some makers that are excellent businessmen/women; Darrel Ralph comes to mind. Ken Onion and Ernie Emerson would also fit into that group. When it comes to dealers, they aren't all equal in this aspect either. For the most part though you are correct, dealers will be better at business than makers.
 
Good discussion Danbo. From my point of view as a maker, if a guy comes to my table and buys several knives, he is going to get a substantial discount regardless of who he is. In a market place its first in best dressed. The real advantage a dealer has is a bigger wallet and knowing what will resell quickly. They know their stuff.

I will give you an example. We have had an American Dealer attend two consecutive Australian Knifemakers Guild Shows and purchase 57 and 55 Knives from 6 of the makers present. Makers he had never met before and who's work he may have only seen in photographs. He managed to asses, inspect and purchase all those knives in about 90 mins. That takes skill not to mention a good set of balls. Most of the knives sold in the first two weeks after they were posted. Thats not a bad gamble.

Apart from the fantastic exposure for the maker, there is another benefit. The more succesfull dealers gain just as big a reputation as the makers they buy from. Buyers will quickly come to trust the dealers eye. They can confidently say if its on so and so's site it will be good.

and now for something completely different

doctor, lawyer and indian Chief,
they all dig that crazy beat :D
 
Keith Montgomery said:
I would agree with this statement in all but a few cases. There are some makers that are excellent businessmen/women; Darrel Ralph comes to mind. Ken Onion and Ernie Emerson would also fit into that group.
Click to expand...
Jerry Fisk...
 
I should let you know that there was one point you made in which I am in total agreement. That is that the maker dealer arrangement can be very beneficial for all involved.

If a dealer is doing a lot of the marketing of a makers knives then this frees up the maker to be able to spend more time in the shop. More time in the shop equals more knives - equals more money for the maker. We all know what benefit the dealer gets from the relationship; no makers, no custom knives for dealers to sell. The consumer gets to check out hundreds of knives on the dealers' sites. They also get instant gratification. For those that aren't prepared to wait for a knife dealers and the aftermarket are the only way to go.

Another point you raised is that dealers are stingy when it comes to sharing customer information with makers. In my opinion this is how it should be. It is not in the best interest of the dealer to have the makers he deals with in direct competition with him for the same customers. The only time a dealer should be sharing customer information with a maker is when the customer needs work done on the knife he bought. At that point a dialogue should exist so that the maker can get all pertinent information from the dealer. Makers should make sure that their contact information is easy to find. They should get listed in the Knives annuals or in some other make it easy for possible customers to contact them. That way, when people are checking out the dealer sites and they see a the maker's name they will be able to contact them directly if they want.
 
Steven,
I resent that remark.

I could get that job at Wal-Mart pulling in shopping carts from the parking lot anytime I wanted it :)

And, I'm not stubborn. I'm not, I tell you...No way.



I do like dealers, though. Always have, always will.
 
Kohai999 said:
Have the many " superb" businessmen that you have personally done business with delivered on the date that they said they would? And don't be making excuses for them either.

I am a graphic artist with a small company. If I don't get the work done on time, everybody in my company from the owner down to the receptionist suffers ...
Click to expand...
You'll find that in most cases you are dealing with a one man shop/business. When I was in corporate America, our company (like most any other company) had people specifically educated for:

  • Production
  • Maintenance
  • Shipping and Receiving
  • Accounts Payable
  • Billing
  • Payroll
  • Accounting
  • Purchasing
  • Research and Development
  • Quality Assurance
  • Advertising
  • Sales
  • Customer Relations
  • Computers (IT, Programming, Operations, Graphic Design, Web Design, etc.)
  • And the list goes on ...

By contrast, in a business like mine, I am all of the above plus the guy who sweeps the floor and takes out the trash. If anything (and I mean anything) disrupts the flow, then obviously the entire business suffers. There is no one to take up the slack. When giving an estimated time of delivery (especially when you are projecting 2 - 3 years into the future) it is in a way, almost a crap shoot as has been mentioned in either this thread, or one of the many others like it.

Any unforeseen things like equipment outage, illness, injury, death in the family, jury duty, and so on, the whole schedule thing is down the toilet. I'm not making excuses here. This is just the way it is. I might mention that I am usually very close to my projected delivery times. However, I can certainly understand how easy it is to miss a deadline (within reason). Projecting a delivery time of 6 months and still not having the delivery out after 2 years is not something that could be easily explained. Projecting a delivery time of 16 months and delivering in 17 months is understandable (to me).

##################

Also, Joss mentioned Jerry Fisk as one of the excellent businessmen. He probably doesn't know just how right he is. Fisk has time schedules and projected goals that go from a day to 10 years.

Some time ago we were headed off somewhere together and I picked up stack of forms that were laying by the console of his truck. As it turns out what I was looking at was a time schedule by the hour for I believe a week. Anyway, Fisk saw me perusing the paperwork and said, "Yeah, I'm a little frustrated. I had a little problem and I'm behind an hour this week -- gotta figure out a way to make that up".

And me? I was as proud as I could be that I was only two weeks behind that week. :D
 
Jerry is a great guy and an excellent businessman, but I do think that a couple of years ago he started falling behind in his orders. For this reason he decided not to take any more until he could get himself caught up.

Personally, I have no problem with makers being late with delivery as long as I am kept in the loop.

Steven, in your company what would happen if you were in a car accident and were laid up for a couple of months. Would they have someone else that could do your job? I would sure hope so. If that happens to a maker, delays are inevitable. There is no one else to take up the slack. I don't consider something like that to be an excuse, I think of it as an acceptable reason.
 
Personally, I have no problem with makers being late with delivery as long as I am kept in the loop.
Click to expand...

I am 100% with Keith on this for the reasons that Terry gives.

I live as well as crash and burn on deadlines, but they are established (most of the time dictated :) just a few months days or weeks in advance. Even if I am sick I can make progress. I can come into work focus on my software, not have worries about compensation and don't have to sweep or be concerned about the equipment that I need to get my job done.

I doubt that many people have the ability to predict finish dates on multiple projects of any type that go out into a multiple year time period.
 
Mr Primos,

I know that a knife shop is a one man business in most cases, that is a strong part of the appeal.

At my company, there are 12 people in my office. I handle most of the following areas:

Production
Purchasing
• Research and Development
• Quality Assurance
• Advertising
• Sales
• Customer Relations
Graphic Design

I also understand things breaking the flow. As a company we schedule my time out 6 months in advance, and fill in the blanks as needed. I was self employed as a tattoo artist/retail knife shop owner for 6 years. In a nutshell, I UNDERSTAND.

I wish that six months was the longest that I had waited for a knife.
I want/need knives, and so I jump through the hoops. Not easy though. In February I rec'd two calls within 1/2 hour of eachother. One set of knives was to have been delivered in January, and March. This was delivered in March. The other set of knives was to have been delivered in June. This was also delivered in March. The total for four knives was $3,600. It is hard to keep that much $$ on hand at any given point, and I strongly believe in paying for my knives when a maker has finished them. In other words, the calls came on Saturday, and checks went out on Monday. If the first maker had kept his schedule, and the second maker had kept his, then I would not have been strapped for cash six weeks before my annual pilgrimage to the OKCA. BTW, the makers wanted their money NOW, not later. These are cool guys, so it was a minor inconvenience, not a major problem, but it could have been. These were for personal collection, not resale.
I have had makers call me two years after an agreed upon date (they set the date, not me) and ask if I was still interested in a knife from them. Not usually, but sometimes. 2 months, 4 months, no sweat, just give me a heads up, communicate(that "c" word again). After 8 months I get irritated, especially if I paid a deposit.
Jerry Fisk seems like a consummate professional. Great technical aspect, organized and ethical. Maybe he should give classes on knifemaking business 101.
The fact is that a lot of knifemakers that I know would rather go fishin' and b******g rather than be better businessmen/professionals. As you said, there are a lot of hats to be worn as a one man shop and I prefer to deal with professional knifemakers.

Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top