Remind me why tip-down is good

Shmackey

Shmackey

Joined
May 5, 2000
Messages
1,478
I was lucky enough to stop in at the Spyderco outlet the other day. I ordinarily don't even bother with linerlock knives, but I decided that I really, really like the Military. Thing is, like most people, I carry my knife in my front right pocket, nudged up against the right side.
This is fine for tip-up linerlocks, since the blade is effectively held inside the handle by the side of the pocket. But a tip-down blade, like the Military, could bump open and would then point right at...well, you get the idea.
Now, if some folks think it's easier to grab and open a tip-down knife, that's fine, but I don't understand why tip-down has been equated with safety and tip-up has a dangerous reputation. How do people carry a tip-down linerlock in an extra-safe manner?
 
for that very reason I refuse to put the clip on the butt end of a knife.....as does pat crawford and a few others......sticking your hand into a SHARP half opened point could not only ruin your day but quite possibly your life!!
frown.gif

tongue.gif
 
Interesting. I'd rather cut my finger than my dinger, as it were, but I guess I see the problem. But if a linerlock knife can accidentally open when it's butted up against the side of a pocket, is it really safe to carry one completely un-butted (tip-down)?
 
Suggestion number one: Carry your knife in the coin pocket of your jeans. There's not enough room there for it to open.

Suggestion number two: Get a benchmade for your daily carry. They have "correctly" positioned clips and they don't open by themselves. Plus that Life Sharp service is the absolute best (I sent my knife in for a free sharpening and it came back with a complete cleaning, lube, adjustments, new screws throughout, and a new clip. Great company! Great products!

Just call me the guy with no scars on his finger tips.
wink.gif
 
Schmackey,
Most good knives, production and custom, have a detent ball to prevent the knife from opening. If a knife can open easily, it could quite possibly do the same damage tip up or down if it opened far enough.
 
I carry my stryker (tip down) in my right pocket on the far right side. I have only had a problem with it opening a couple of times when I pulled my handkerchief out and it caught on the blade tip, pulling it open partly. 1 minor cut 1 time. I simply adapt the way I take my handkerchief out of my pocket. No problem.

mike
 
that is exactly the reason i dont carry my spyderco khalsa anymore - the damn thing would open up on ya, and was really bad when ya stuck your hand into pocket for keys, etc and bumped the hump on the blade - it opened every time and cut the pi$$ outta me once - put it in the gunsafe and now carry a emerson CQC-7 and it dont happen now.......and i REALLY like the khalsa too cept for that, cool design BUT.......
 
After years of debate I think the conclusion usually reached is that it boils down to personal preferances and training. I prefer tip up/tail clips because I find the draw much faster [not the draw component really but the indexing and opening]. I can do it the other way, but I find tip up much more natural and instinctive. I had only one partial-opening-in-pant experience, which taught me not to carry a P.O.S. and to keep all the knives I do carry properly adjusted. Never had another problem.
 
Alex: you're right about Benchmade. My daily carry is a 710 Axis. A great knife. But sometimes, like in the case of the Military, I see a linerlock I'd really like.

The ball detent, no matter what it's made of, seems like an afterthought of engineering. I much prefer the way a lockback or Axis lock works: the very same system that holds your knife open is the one that holds it closed--over an inch of inital travel, rather than half a centimeter.

I'd gladly get another Axis lock if one appealed to me. The only one that comes close is the Osborne, which I'd get if it were either bigger or smaller.
 
Tip down does seem like it would be inherently safer to me, though accessing a tip-down knife with my strong hand when the knife is clipped to my strong side front pocket requires repositioning during the draw. I have had no difficulties with the tip-up carry to keep me away from it yet.

Lately I have been rotating between a Benchmade 940 (tip up) and Spyderco Calyso Jr (tip down) as my daily strong side carry clipped to my front pocket. The tip-up 940 is easier to access, for me. I simply put my 2nd finger at the end of the clip, my thumb runs along the knive on the inside the pocket, I pull up and the open the knife with no repositioning. Once or twice, I heared a little click as I withdraw, which was probably the blade opening ever so slightly as the thumbstud stuck a bit in the edge of the pocket and the axis lock snaped it shut. I can also reach the thumbstud with my thumb before drawing to make sure is stays closed during the draw, but I do not routinely concentrate that hard on the draw to remember to do that. I have never found it opened or partly opened in my pocket.

The only time I accidently cut anything drawing a tip-up knife was with a CRKT product. I was at the knife store considering the knife and was practing a few draws to see how comfortable it would be for me. As I was speaking with the representative, I was pointing out to him that this blade seems to be a bit off center and was hitting the liners. I explained that if it did not close all the way, whomever he sold it to might get cut. As I was saying this, I was pulling the blade from my pocket it was slightly opened a put a hole in my pants outside of the pocket. I attributed this to bad quality of this particular knife and it might have stuck me either way.

The tip down Calypso Jr., to me, is a bit more difficult to draw (though not prohibitively so) as it requires repositioning. After grabbing the top of the knife and pulling from the pocket, I must rotate the knife in my hand a bit to open it. Love that hole! And, it won'd grab anything like those thumbstuds do!

Either carry method doesn't keep me from considering a particular knife. Can't wait for an Axis lock with the hole!

Regards,

David


[This message has been edited by David G (edited 02-25-2001).]
 
I used to have several different knives with tip down carry. Now all my knives are tip up. Why? Personal preference and the fact that I have not had any accidental openings with tip up. I did have an accidental opening with tip down and it cut a hole in my pants. I won't buy a knife now if it is tip down. Another reason is that attaching a lanyard to a knife is much better with tip up because the lanyard hangs out the pocket and assists with retrieving the knife, whereas tip down the lanyard gets tangled around the knife and blade and possibly delaying the opening of the blade which could be a problem if you're intending to use your knife for an emergency or self-defense.
 
I had a Spyderco Starmate that would open in my pocket easily, mostly in sweatpants that are relatively loose. I was walking through the house one day, and an inch and a half of the tip was sticking through the pants. I got rid of it. I carry a BM Pinnacle everyday, and it never has opened accidently and I can't imagine it would. I do carry in my rear pocket, which has it's own set of problems, mainly scratching everything and denting the wood on our dining room chairs. I have been experimenting with IWB, and I think it rocks.

------------------
A knife is by default a tool, it's only a weapon when a human chooses to make it so.
 
Actually, a well made ball detent, like on my Terzola ATCF, actually pulls the blade closed the last 1/2 inch or so.
I agree that it all comes down to personal preference.
 
I agree that on a liner lock, a strong detent is absolutely necessary for tip up carry. A weak detent is dangerous, I personally suffered a nasty cut from a Kershaw King Cheetah (South African version of the Tri-Hawk) when I reached into my pocket and it accidentally opened. Other knives like my own Terzoula ATCF or my Wegner have never budged. I have never had a problem with a tip down liner lock with a normal shaped blade.
 
I agree that knives designed to open with thumb studs do present a problem with tip-up carry - but Schmackey is talking about a Spyderco, with thumb-hole opener.

I've often carried older Spyderco Endura and Benchmade Ascent models (both tip-up and both thumb-hole openers) clipped both in-pocket and in-waistband without a single instance of unintended opening.

I quite agree with Schmackey that the Spyderco Military would be a better design with tip-up carry, and it's one of the reasons I don't own a Military.
 
the real problem is not tip up or tip down, but the fact that most knife buyers want their knife to open with a whisper. I can make the ball detent so it would NEVER open by accident....and have....people complain that its too stiff. Or, as I see on many, many customs.....some of them my good friends have made...the ball sticks up about .015"....thats five times the thickness of a hair...and remember...that little part sticking up is all the ROUND part of the ball. If you position it so that over 1/3 of the ball falls into the hole it is VERY secure....most guys use the 1/16" balls....... .0625" thick. so that is some of the technical stuff and well, you can figure the rest out by yourself.
tongue.gif
 
Never had a problem with a Spydie opening on me ( tip down) when carried in front jeans pocket ,carried closer to the left side of the pocket.
Had one prob with a BM 722, carried in the same position. Had a small wallet in the same pocket and when inserting the wallet, the blade apparently opened a little and caused a rather nasty gash on my right index finger. This is not a design flaw, IMO, but only my own ineptitude.
I think the whole issue is really about what you get used to handling. This is a very individual thing. There's no right or wrong.

PS: Have had no further probs with tip-up carry. Also keep a good supply of bandaids handy.
biggrin.gif
 
I personally have never had a problem with either a tip up or a tip down liner lock opening on me. However, I see many more reports of people getting cut by tip up knives than tip down. In fact, I've seen a couple of reports of tip down knives cutting pants, but only one report of a tip down knife actually cutting a person's leg.

I think the difference is that with a tip down knife, gravity is helping to keep the blade closed. With a tip up knife though, gravity is pulling down the blade. Plus, a tip up knife has to open only slightly to expose the point to your fingers, while on a tip down knife, the blade has to open substantially before it can poke through the side wall of the pocket.

If accidental opening is a big concern, you might want to handle the knife before you buy to test the dentent system. I have one Military that has a very strong ball dentent and one that has a weak one. Never had a problem with the weak one, but it shows that there can be variation within a model.

------------------
Cerulean

"My good reason to carry a knife is that God gave me rather weak teeth and rudimentary claws in an evolutionary trade-off." - J.K.M.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top