Reverse Progress Sharpening?

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I have been freehand sharpening my Douk Douk and a Damascus fixed blade on my waterstones. My grit progression has been 220-650-1000-6000-8000-12000. Both knives are fine and toothy after the 650. The Douk Douk is shaving sharp after the 1000. The Damascus can cut printer paper but still rather toothy after 1000. When I progress into the 6000 to polish and refine, the both seem to lose cutting ability

- Douk Douk: loses bite... am I stripping off the burrs wrong?
- Damascus: Completely loses edge. Worse than pre-650... frustrating.

What is wrong with me? Angle? Choice of grit progression? Just being an idiot? Please educate. Thank you for your time.:mad:
 
Getting tired and not keeping the same angle? Or, possibly, 6000 is just too fine for the structure of that particular steel.
Regardless, 1000 to 6000 is a big jump. May be best to try something in the 2000-4000 range in between.

I did the same thing with my War Dog. I was actually trying to remove a lateral scratch in the blade. Rubbing the whole thing on a piece of sandpaper over a vinyl CD storage box.
Since it was convex zero-ground, I hit the edge, too. At 220 it was just barely sharp; 440 was shaving sharp; 800 was crazy sharp. Didn't test at 1000, but at 1500 it no longer had that bite. I kept going to 2000 and 2500, but I had to go back to 800 and re-progress a couple days later to get my laser edge back. The prior day I was in a bit of a hurry, and I'm sure my technique just got a bit sloppy.
 
It may be that neither steel is fine-grained enough to really benefit from a high polish. Damascus is always a toss-up anyway, due to the inherent wide variation and contrast in alternating 'bright' layers of high nickel-content steel, and whatever carbon steel (assuming it's not stainless) makes up the 'dark' layers of the damascus. If the carbon steel used in each is also relatively soft (low RC; maybe mid-50s or lower), finishing too fine may be counter-productive as well.

I've had similar issues in trying to go too fine in finish, with many 'less expensive' knives that likely aren't very fine-grained. The 'teeth' left in coarser stages tend to just crumble away (seemingly) in use, or with attempts at polishing too high. Reminds me of coarse-grained sand used in building a sandcastle, which just won't form or hold a crisp edge/corner (if that comparison sounds odd, I'm in agreement; but that's what keeps coming to mind, when dealing with blades like this).


David
 
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When you get a very high polish, what happens is that you don't have the teeth on the edge to bite into what it is your cutting. When the edge is that polished, it usually works better in a push cut at the expense of a draw cut. I have gotten knives made out of some very cheap steels to razor sharp that would push cut very well, but wouldn't draw cut for anything. However, David could also be right. It could be that the steel has a very coarse structure, and therefore will never take a good edge.
 
It may be that neither steel is fine-grained enough to really benefit from a high polish. Damascus is always a toss-up anyway, due to the inherent wide variation and contrast in alternating 'bright' layers of high nickel-content steel, and whatever carbon steel (assuming it's not stainless) makes up the 'dark' layers of the damascus. If the carbon steel used in each is also relatively soft (low RC; maybe mid-50s or lower), finishing too fine may be counter-productive as well.

I've had similar issues in trying to go too fine in finish, with many 'less expensive' knives that likely aren't very fine-grained. The 'teeth' left in coarser stages tend to just crumble away (seemingly) in use, or with attempts at polishing too high. Reminds me of coarse-grained sand used in building a sandcastle, which just won't form or hold a crisp edge/corner (if that comparison sounds odd, I'm in agreement; but that's what keeps coming to mind, when dealing with blades like this).


David

How fine a grain is needed for high polish? I've read Dou Douks are used for razors in some parts of the world, but have not tried myself.
 
How fine a grain is needed for high polish? I've read Dou Douks are used for razors in some parts of the world, but have not tried myself.

The one thing that makes me wonder is, some of the 'Douk Douk' knives are fairly inexpensive (some are downright cheap), and might not be the best representation of the better ones out there. I think some of the best ones would likely (or hopefully) be made with better grades of steel, in which case I could see them being used as razors, or at least capable of performing like them. I see similar disparity in 1095 blades, some of which are stunning in their performance, and others which behave much like the OP's described blades. I have a 1095 blade that drives me crazy in it's loss of 'bite', if I attempt to put anything but the most basic of coarse edges on it; another one (Schrade USA) will excel, regardless of which edge finish I choose for it, and it's amazingly simple to get it and keep it there. I absolutely love that one. A lot of it seems to come down to the quality of heat treat, affecting both grain size and hardness; I think this might apply to the inexpensive Douk Douks and other similar knives. The basic pattern is akin to a utilitarian/rough-use knife, mass-produced with minimal frills. At the price point, I could see there might be some variability in heat-treat, but still be 'good enough' in the eyes & hands of most people looking for a working blade they're not afraid to use hard.


David
 
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The one thing that makes me wonder is, some of the 'Douk Douk' knives are fairly inexpensive (some are downright cheap), and might not be the best representation of the better ones out there. I think some of the best ones would likely (or hopefully) be made with better grades of steel, in which case I could see them being used as razors, or at least capable of performing like them. I see similar disparity in 1095 blades, some of which are stunning in their performance, and others which behave much like the OP's described blades. I have a 1095 blade that drives me crazy in it's loss of 'bite', if I attempt to put anything but the most basic of coarse edges on it; another one (Schrade USA) will excel, regardless of which edge finish I choose for it, and it's amazingly simple to get it and keep it there. I absolutely love that one. A lot of it seems to come down to the quality of heat treat, affecting both grain size and hardness; I think this might apply to the inexpensive Douk Douks and other similar knives. The basic pattern is akin to a utilitarian/rough-use knife, mass-produced with minimal frills. At the price point, I could see there might be some variability in heat-treat, but still be 'good enough' in the eyes & hands of most people looking for a working blade they're not afraid to use hard.


David

Douk-Douk's are like iPhones right? There is only one model and carbon steel type made in France. The only variation is size. The Damascus is supposed to be 59 RC... it's Brad Vice ADS.
 
Douk-Douk's are like iPhones right? There is only one model and carbon steel type made in France. The only variation is size. The Damascus is supposed to be 59 RC... it's Brad Vice ADS.

There seems to be a LOOONNNG history of them out there too, going back to 1929; hence the possibility of a wide variation in quality, depending on what it's compared to. If I were to suspect one factor over anything else, it'd be variation in heat treat (likely a lot of changes in technology and methods, in the last 80+ years). The steel used is apparently XC75, at least as described in the vendor description below; very basic carbon steel. Still don't see any other published specs of RC hardness for the Douk-Douk, so that may be an issue too. I was looking at another thread on Douk-Douks, linked below; one commenter in post #53 mentions hardness of his knife at RC 50-53, though I don't know if there's any published (factual) basis for that. ( Edit: Confirmed at RC 50-53; see the link to mfr. site in post #12 below. )

"Product Description

The Douk-Douk, named for the Polynesian mythic figure depicted on its handle, is a slim folding knife with a rich history that's made the same way today as when Cognet introduced it back in 1929. Intended as a simple, hard-use knife for the working man, it was exported extensively to the French colonies, where it saw great (and continued!) popularity.

The Turkish clip point of the blade is ideal for general utility, and features a slight hollow grind and an attractive arabesque electro-etched on its face side. Its simple design, consisting of only 6 parts (blade, handle, bale, spring, and 2 rivets) allows it to shrug off the hardest use and its slim profile carries easily in a pocket. The tang is a half-stop design which, combined with the strong back spring, provides a degree of safety against accidental closure.

This version features a bright, hard chrome finish on the handle for additional corrosion resistance and increased visibility. A very attractive and hard-wearing alternative to their traditional blueing.

Blade Length: 3.7"

Overall Length: 7.9"

Steel: AFNOR XC75 High Carbon

Thickness: 3mm

Weight: 2.4 oz."

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-have-a-Douk-Douk-!-Story-facts-fun-adventure!

The other thing to consider is, the oft-used description of 'shaving sharp' in a knife edge can imply almost any edge finish. Good steels (implying good heat treat) can attain 'shaving sharpness' at most any finish; others that might not be as good will usually be more impaired at higher polish, as either the hardness or grain size, or both, will affect the steel's ability to either take a very refined edge (grain size) or retain it (hardness).

Sometimes, if a steel is very soft, a different sharpening strategy may make a difference too. Very soft steels are more difficult to refine on hard hones/stones, as it'll be challenging to keep an increasingly finer edge from rolling over, or scrubbing off entirely, without perfect technique. This is the trouble I found with the 1095 blade I mentioned earlier; the steel was obviously softer than my 'best example' (Schrade USA Old Timer), and I noticed it was too easy to over-scrub the edge and ruin it. I was able to somewhat improve results by switching to an edge-trailing technique, with very light pressure, on sandpaper; more akin to a gentler stropping stroke. Even after that, however, the softer steel still wasn't able to hold onto a very fine edge for long.

Regarding the hardness of the damascus, that still won't imply much, if anything, about the grain size or differences inherent to the mix of the damascus. It's made using two radically different steel types (which won't likely respond the in the same way to heat treat), folded into layers, and I'd bet the RC hardness referenced is only an estimate, and probably not uniform across the entirety of the blade. This is why I refer to it as a toss-up, because there are too many built-in variables and a lack of uniformity in damascus, almost by design. The result looks good, but won't necessarily translate into better performance or finer edges.


David
 
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I've had and still have to an extent, trouble getting sharper edges at high grits. When you get to the very finishing steps you need to make sure you are consistent. Consistency is most important in my opinion. I am still yet to get near perfect edges off a stone so I always use a strop to clean up any tiny burrs or rough spots I can't see or feel.
 
The one thing that makes me wonder is, some of the 'Douk Douk' knives are fairly inexpensive (some are downright cheap), and might not be the best representation of the better ones out there. I think some of the best ones would likely (or hopefully) be made with better grades of steel, in which case I could see them being used as razors, or at least capable of performing like them. I see similar disparity in 1095 blades, some of which are stunning in their performance, and others which behave much like the OP's described blades. I have a 1095 blade that drives me crazy in it's loss of 'bite', if I attempt to put anything but the most basic of coarse edges on it; another one (Schrade USA) will excel, regardless of which edge finish I choose for it, and it's amazingly simple to get it and keep it there. I absolutely love that one. A lot of it seems to come down to the quality of heat treat, affecting both grain size and hardness; I think this might apply to the inexpensive Douk Douks and other similar knives. The basic pattern is akin to a utilitarian/rough-use knife, mass-produced with minimal frills. At the price point, I could see there might be some variability in heat-treat, but still be 'good enough' in the eyes & hands of most people looking for a working blade they're not afraid to use hard.


David

What I'm basically getting at is I don't think grain size has all that much to do with how fine an edge you can get. Both 1095 type steels and 154CM and similar steels are capable of use as straight razors, but the grain size is almost certainly larger on the latter, unless something is quite askew in the former. If it's carbide size, that I could see having an effect, but that isn't the same as grain size. In any case, the steels used for Douk Douks typically don't have carbides in the fashion that other steels like 154CM, D2, etc. do. The Douks I've read about being used as razors were the cheap ones exported from France, about the time the design was made popular decades ago.

As to the problem at hand, the steel in both knives could be sub-par and uncapable of taking such a fine edge, or it could be sharpening technique. You can't really do anything about the former, and trying to fix sharpening is the easiest place to start anyway.

Will the edges off the 650 grit cut paper, shave your arm, etc? Can the edges off the 1000 grit shave your arm, perhaps above the skin, or even split a hair held between your fingers? I don't know anything about your Damascus source. Is it a reputable source for fine cutting Damascus? I would say you could start by working on your technique until you can get an arm shaving edge off the 1000 grit stone. Nearly any knife I've tried would shave, perhaps roughly, off my 1000 grit King if I did my part. The better ones shaved easily and the worse ones would barely do it, and the very best would whittle hair off just a 1000 grit King stone (154CM from Benchmade). Edge trailing passes, extensive deburring steps, no-burr sharpening, microbevels, and a few other things are stuff you can try to see if it helps making the change to the 6k stone from the 1k. You may also consider using an angle guide of some sort, until you get the edges you want and then can go back to free hand sharpening. It could be as simple as propping up the end of your stone or waterstone holder on a table and then holding the knife horizontal. This is opposed to laying the stone horizontal and then trying to find and hold an angle with the moving part (the knife). It's still freehand, it's just you are using your ability to more accurately judge a horizontal angle than a 15 degree angle by eye.
 
Ordinarily, I wouldn't disagree that grain size shouldn't matter too much to attain 'shaving sharpness', in the bigger picture; shaving (or 'razor') sharpness can happen at relatively coarse or medium grit levels. But, it's known that the heat treat/quench process can affect it, as the grain size will grow until the steel cools to a given temperature. Steels that cool more rapidly after heat treat will have finer grain (because crystal growth of the grains is halted early by the rapid cooling), and steels that cool more slowly will have larger grain (because crystal growth occurs for a longer period of time, until the steel cools to a given temperature to halt it).

I don't speak of carbides at all, in the context of this thread, as I don't think either of the steels have much, if any, significant carbide content (chromium/vanadium). With a steel that has no carbide content (like the XC75 used for the Douk-Douk), the grain size is the main thing affecting how fine the apex of the edge will get, before the grains themselves become dislodged from the edge; this is why I'd suspect it's a possible obstacle in attaining a highly-refined edge, beyond a certain point.

Edited to add:
Found a link on the M.C. Cognet site (mfr. of the Douk-Douk) which confirms blade hardness at RC 50-53, here (original site is in French; may need to translate in your browser, if it doesn't translate automatically):

( Text quoted from site: http://www.douk-douk.com/Douk-Douk/caracteristiques_techniques_douk.htm )

"Heat treatment of a hardness equivalent to 50-53 Rockwell.c. Blunting with water."


David
 
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Ordinarily, I wouldn't disagree that grain size shouldn't matter too much to attain 'shaving sharpness', in the bigger picture; shaving (or 'razor') sharpness can happen at relatively coarse or medium grit levels. But, it's known that the heat treat/quench process can affect it, as the grain size will grow until the steel cools to a given temperature. Steels that cool more rapidly after heat treat will have finer grain (because crystal growth of the grains is halted early by the rapid cooling), and steels that cool more slowly will have larger grain (because crystal growth occurs for a longer period of time, until the steel cools to a given temperature to halt it).


I don't speak of carbides at all, in the context of this thread, as I don't think either of the steels have much, if any, significant carbide content (chromium/vanadium). With a steel that has no carbide content (like the XC75 used for the Douk-Douk), the grain size is the main thing affecting how fine the apex of the edge will get, before the grains themselves become dislodged from the edge; this is why I'd suspect it's a possible obstacle in attaining a highly-refined edge, beyond a certain point.

Edited to add:
Found a link on the M.C. Cognet site (mfr. of the Douk-Douk) which confirms blade hardness at RC 50-53, here (original site is in French; may need to translate in your browser, if it doesn't translate automatically):

David

I don't think that's how it works in either case highlighted above. Grains don't grow during quenching, and I've never heard of grains being dislodged by sharpening. Grains for most steels are 10 to 30 times as big as a sharpened edge, using an edge width of 1 micron as an example.

It is certainly possible that the OP has some badly treated steel that is fracturing along the grains, but that means the grain size was blown, impurities have segregated to the grain boundaries, or both. It also means it's happening in 2 different steels given the same procedure for sharpening. It's certainly possible, but there's nothing to be done about it now except ask for his/her money back.

RampageRhino69, are you able to get very sharp edges on other knives, just these 2 give you trouble?

Steels as soft as the Douk Douk take an especially careful and light touch to get really sharp. They are soft enough that the edge just folds over, leaving a burr that is very stubborn and not easily removed, except perhaps with diamond. Have you tried diamond, or just the water stones?
 
Update...
Douk-Douk- Solved. Too much pressure when I progressed to the 6000. Solved by using lighter pressure in a stropping motion.

Damascus Fixed: Terrible. The blade came as a hollow grind. What's the fastest way to change my secondary bevel into a V, rather than keep it convex? Right now the convex is so uneven I'm ashamed to own it.
 
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I don't think that's how it works in either case highlighted above. Grains don't grow during quenching, and I've never heard of grains being dislodged by sharpening. Grains for most steels are 10 to 30 times as big as a sharpened edge, using an edge width of 1 micron as an example.

It is certainly possible that the OP has some badly treated steel that is fracturing along the grains, but that means the grain size was blown, impurities have segregated to the grain boundaries, or both. It also means it's happening in 2 different steels given the same procedure for sharpening. It's certainly possible, but there's nothing to be done about it now except ask for his/her money back.

RampageRhino69, are you able to get very sharp edges on other knives, just these 2 give you trouble?

Steels as soft as the Douk Douk take an especially careful and light touch to get really sharp. They are soft enough that the edge just folds over, leaving a burr that is very stubborn and not easily removed, except perhaps with diamond. Have you tried diamond, or just the water stones?

No. I never said (or even implied) grains grow during quench; instead, this happens while the steel is still hot, before quenching. The quenching is what stops the growth of the grains. The method and timing of the quench, therefore the rate at which it happens, has an effect on grain size. Steel manufacturers (for use in cutlery) emphasize grain size as a big factor in how fine a sharpened edge can eventually be (and durability of it), and how the steel is treated & quenched has the greatest effect on that and many other physical properties of the steel, like ductility, brittleness and toughness, with all other factors being equal (such as the steel type).

( Here's a published example, one of many that can be found if searching on 'heat treat vs. grain size' or other similar terms, that puts it fairly clearly; quoted from site: http://www.heattreatconsortium.com/TechPro/HeatTreatChemistry.htm#Quenching )

"Grain Size

As molten metal cools, it aligns itself in to a precise regular structure that is called Unit Cells (bcc, fcc, bct). As the Cells form, they combine to form "Nucleation Sites". This process continues in all three dimensions, forming "Colonies" of Unit Cells. When the boundaries of the Colonies touch each other, a "Grain" or "Grain Boundary" is formed. In general, the slower the cooling rate, the fewer the Nucleation Sites and therefore the larger the Colonies or the larger the Grain Size. Conversely, the faster the cooling rate the more Nucleations Sites and the smaller the Grain Size. The Grain Size effects the mechanical properties of the steel.

The smaller the Grain Size (cooled fast) the greater the strength. The larger the Grain Size (cooled slowly) the more ductile it is. Therefore, a part is cooled according to the desired property.



Iron-Carbon Phase

Steel is Iron with 0.0 to 2.0% carbon content. The location of the carbon atom within the Unit Cell is called the Interstitial Spots of the Unit Cell.

Steel with very little carbon is called Ferrite. Steel that has approximately 0.8% carbon is called Pearlite. Steel with a carbon content above 0.8% to 2% is called Cementite.

At more than 2% carbon, it is called "Cast Iron".

Ferrite is almost pure iron. It has little 'desire' to dissolve carbon and so there is little carbon in it. Since carbon gives steel the ability to become strong and hard, Ferrite is very weak steel. Ferrite exists at low temperatures only and is magnetic.

Pearlite is a mixture of Ferrite and Cementite. Pearlite exists at room temperature and is magnetic.

Cementite is a compound of iron and carbon known as "iron carbide". Its chemical formation is Fe3C. Cementite contains 6.67% carbon by weight. However, Cementite is present in the alloy between 0.8% and 6.67% carbon. As the percentage of carbon increases, more and more Cementite is present, until at 6.67% the entire mixture is Cementite. Below 2% it is considered steel and above 2% it is Cast Iron (carbon content by volume).



Finding Balance

The hardness, brittleness, ductility, and grain size of a steel is a result of the heating and cooling method that is used in the Heat Treat Cycle.

When steel is heated above the Transformation Temperature to form Austenite, and then quenched very rapidly it will most often transform into Martensite. It will be hard, strong and have a small grain size, but will also be brittle.

When steel is heated above the Transformation Temperature to form Austenite, and then cooled very slowly, it will transform into Ferrite, Pearlite and Cementite. This structure is comparatively softer, less strong, more ductile, and has a larger grain size.

The ideal properties for heat treated steel is hardness, strength, ductility and small grain size.

The selection process comes down to:

If a steel must hard and strong, quench rapidly. However, it will be brittle.
If a steel must have great ductility for machining, cool slowly. However, will not be very strong.
If the steel must have both strength and ductility, alloys can be added, but costs will increase.

Here's a succinct quote regarding the effects of grain size on edge retention. The point mentioned of too-large grains causing a fine edge to crumble is something I've suspected in a couple of my own knives, sometimes during finishing sharpening (this is why I brought up the grain size in the first place, and why I mentioned how it can limit how fine the edge will be, if grains are crumbling out of it):
(quoted from: http://www.tzknives.com/articles/GrainSize.html )

"If the grain size of the blade is too large the edge will tend to crumble as it is used. Conversely, if the grain size is too small you can lose wear resistance. The edges may also tend to wear to a smooth polished one rather than a fine micro tooth. Finding a happy medium is important.

If one looks for it, there's no shortage of published info on the validity and importance of grain size on knife steels, and how it's affected by heat treat and quench.

All this aside (and apologies to the OP), I do think the softness of the Douk-Douk's blade is likely the biggest issue; and that seems to have been confirmed in his update, re: using lighter pressure and edge-trailing strokes. The damascus blade is somewhat of a mystery, as long as the steel types used to make it and manufacturer info is still lacking. Contacting the mfr of that blade might shed some light on what sharpening methods will be best for it.


David
 
Update...
Douk-Douk- Solved. Too much pressure when I progressed to the 6000. Solved by using lighter pressure in a stropping motion.

Damascus Fixed: Terrible. The blade came as a hollow grind. What's the fastest way to change my secondary bevel into a V, rather than keep it convex? Right now the convex is so uneven I'm ashamed to own it.

An angle guide, like the DMT Aligner clamp, is an easy and accurate way to handle that. That's what I've often done, especially if there are some sharpening troubles that might've been impacted by my own technique. A guide can eliminate that variable, and further highlight if there are other issues, such as the steel itself. Just make sure to take it all the way to a full apex, before removing the guide from the blade. I'd also take it fairly acute (30° inclusive or lower), to eliminate a wide(ish) edge angle as being part of the problem. :)


David
 
All this aside (and apologies to the OP), I do think the softness of the Douk-Douk's blade is likely the biggest issue; and that seems to have been confirmed in his update, re: using lighter pressure and edge-trailing strokes. The damascus blade is somewhat of a mystery, as long as the steel types used to make it and manufacturer info is still lacking. Contacting the mfr of that blade might shed some light on what sharpening methods will be best for it.


David

This sums up most of it, aside from the mystery of the Damascus. Those softer steels just don't appreciate a whole lot of stone work. On my softer kitchen knives I get a better result just using the underside of a coffee cup and 'steeling' it on the glazed upper rim. This is also the type of steel that responds well to a grooved/smooth steel combination. Good results can be had with other tools like common bench stones, but as mentioned require a very soft touch. These are also the types of jobs where a drop of mineral oil mixed with the compound can make a big difference in how nicely the edge turns out when used on paper over a stone or WB.
 
what are the best blade angle guides that I can use on my stones?

I would just shim up one side of your stones - use a protractor or roofing square for a guide and place everything on a non-skid surface. Angle guides that you place on the stone can be thrown off if you don't sight through the spine of the blade stock. If you set the stone at an incline, you just have to keep the blade parallel to the bench top as you work. I was a bit skeptical of how well this would work till I gave it a try a handful of times. You're still better off just learning straight freehand, but is a useful alternative that can be easily used on most stones. Here's the link to a page that illustrates the method with my sharpening block - the principle is the same on other equipment:

http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx126/Millermeter_2010/10_zps5a80a656.jpg
 
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