Review of joining stone (s)

Joined
Jun 4, 2010
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Stumbled across these stones a while back when I was looking for higher grit silicon carbide stones. Made for Jointing equipment used in woodworking, found them to be very useful.

Lots of monotone and priceless insights. All comments, questions etc very welcome!

[video=youtube;mMpBij_Emug]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMpBij_Emug&feature=youtu.be[/video]

[video=youtube;52bhOsfRAWQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52bhOsfRAWQ&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 
Awesome review of these stones! Been dying to see them in action for a while now. Thanks for posting them!
 
Ok, good. You've changed your technique some, giving some side movement now in the stroke. What was the knife steel? How dull was it when you started? Yes, it seems that stone will wear quickly. Thanks, DM
 
Ok, good. You've changed your technique some, giving some side movement now in the stroke. What was the knife steel? How dull was it when you started? Yes, it seems that stone will wear quickly. Thanks, DM

David,
The "fine" one is wearing pretty slowly, despite being a muddy stone. I've never lapped it, and by just moving around the stone its wearing nice and even. Will likely last many years. The coarse one, if used with oil, will dish and wear about as fast as a Norton 220 waterstone. With oil and mud it grinds steel at a surprising pace and with a fairly restrained scratch pattern - no deep gouges. Used dry its still very fast, but doesn't wear near as quickly. With light pressure it should still last a long time. I might try one more of the coarse ones to see if I can get one that's a bit harder. If not, I'm still happy with the one in the video - hogs steel but leaves a finish somewhere around a fine Crystalon.

Knife is Aus8, was somewhat worn but no dings or rolls. Could just scratch off a few arm hairs prior. That 240 grit stone can carve a fresh edge mighty fast - the Aus8 ground like soft carbon steel. Have to wipe the surface as I get down to finishing or the loose abrasive beats up the apex a bit (also why burr formation is so mild). As long as the stone is clean, it can make a nice cutting, clean edge.

Had to modify my mechanics a touch to accommodate that pre-loading wrist action. I still keep the grind path at about 45 degrees to the cutting edge but appears to be more lateral because the blade is held more perpendicular to the stone (you don't miss much do you?).

Thanks for watching!
 
Awesome review of these stones! Been dying to see them in action for a while now. Thanks for posting them!

I've set them aside and come back a bunch of times. Finally decided to share what I know because they really do a nice job. For anyone interested in pursuing 'em, do not bother with any but the dark brown, and should be a resin bond for the "polishing" stone. The vitreous stones in the 500+ grit range are too soft. As far as I can tell, the coarse ones do not come with a resin bond, vitreous only, but at that size abrasive it works fine.
They come in diamond and AlumOx too. Unfortunately these aren't the sort of item you can find at Woodcraft, cannot examine prior to purchase. Would love to find someplace local that stocks them but no such luck so far.
 
Here's the final installment showing a bit more of the washboard and use of the mud from the 500 grit jointer stone for a stropping compound.

Thanks for watching!

[video=youtube;KaldYi1vtyY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaldYi1vtyY&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 
Great videos Martin, thanks for sharing!
I like those jointer stones since we can use them dry, makes it very convenient for outdoors/traveling. I will have to try the new hand positions with "preloading" the wrists too.
 
The back honing you do is interesting and well executed. What are the benefits of back-honing? Why should we back-hone? Does it remove metal quicker/ better than edge leading sharpening? Resulting in a better edge? Or burr free edge? Perhaps this was just about the stones, not the technique. Thanks, DM
 
The back honing you do is interesting and well executed. What are the benefits of back-honing? Why should we back-hone? Does it remove metal quicker/ better than edge leading sharpening? Resulting in a better edge? Or burr free edge? Perhaps this was just about the stones, not the technique. Thanks, DM

Ultimately I came by it studying Murray Carter videos. At the time I had very little experience with waterstones and had concluded one could not backhone on a hard stone without raising a burr or at the least, be unable to completely remove an existing burr. Already had some waterstones I seldom used, so started trying this method and found out it did work, and quite well, but only on waterstones. As a finishing method it lets you maintain an edge with exactly the cutting characteristics you want, and with very little steel removal. No eventual rounding of the apex, or the edge becoming more and more refined and one-dimensional. Also noticed that even with a back and forth stroke, the waterstones made a much smaller burr and more consistent, uniform scratch pattern than many other methods. As a final bonus, one can save the mud on some paper or leather and use it for a stropping compound.


The edges done in this manner at medium to fine grit (approx 2k-6k) last a long time, and be refined toothy - perform well on a wide variety of tasks. Have tried a number of methods attempting to emulate this effect by other means and the closest I came was by lapping with a slurry on hardwood. Which was even more challenging and less convenient than using the waterstones. Backhoning on a hard stone is (IMHO) the most difficult freehand technique, quite different from stropping despite their seeming similarities. Any defect in your stroke will be visible. However it doesn't have to be executed flawlessly to get good results, but it does need to be done on a surface with certain characteristics.


Started considering what combination of factors made them work the way they did, and looked around for other means. My opinion is that the combination of a hard abrasive in a somewhat consumable binder is the biggest factor in how they work. Sheds abrasive that's worn simply falls away, and any abrasive that stands too tall relative to its neighbors falls out before it gouges a deeper track. The loose abrasive on the stone surface attacks burrs as they form similar to a lapping operation. Many pluses and only a few minuses. Better quality ones are expensive. Less expensive brands don't tend to work well on a wide variety of steels. They need a bath to soak, and a supply of water the entire time in use. I'm used to having a small kit, one or two stones, small bottle of mineral oil, small block of compound and a few sheets of paper.


When searching for higher grit silicon carbide stones I came across these jointer stones a bunch of times. Hmmm, used dry, shaped to fit the individual cutter profile, a variety of abrasives and binders, relatively consumable and so relatively cheap. Finally gave it a try and was very impressed. As I tend to bounce around a bit with what I'm doing, set the stone aside and played with other media, kept coming back to the waterstones and then to the jointer stone. Works well enough I decided to share. The resin bond of the jointerstone mimics the feel of my other waterstones and for the same reasons. As an added bonus, these can be used dry for a few as long as the stone isn't loading up, no such option for most waterstones. They come in a smaller grit variety, as these stones aren't used in a progression, so a coarse and medium-fine. The mud from the jointerstone works great as a stropping compound on a hard backing as well, unlike the mud from a waterstone, the oil doesn't swell the paper so much and it holds together better. Touched up my chef's knife in this manner and cut a watermelon into wedges just yesterday - wound up cutting a lot of the seeds in half - made it tough to spit em out. That's plenty sharp for an upper end EDU and too sharp for cutting watermelon (who knew)!

If anyone is more interested I can point them to the ones I have - don't think its deal spotting if none of the Forum sponsors sell a given item and I link to a non-sponsor.

HH
 
Whoa, that's a load. Thanks, for the explanation. Would back-honing on a softer binder stone cut harder steels? Not speaking of non-stainless, high hardened, 1-2% carbon steels. Instead a complex stainless, with many elements in it's make-up. Not 420HC but something like S30V. DM
 
Its tough to make a call unless talking about specifics. I do know that waterstones are used extensively on high RC, high carbon steels, though they can have trouble on some of the high wear alloys. I do know one can use loose SiC grit on a board and grind just about any steel though it will be slow going, and can backhone as well. My gut feeling is that at some point you'd have trouble doing any real grinding, but would still be capable of finish backhoning and touchups. The jointer stones that are "hard" enough for freehand sharpening are rated for high speed steel and carbide blades, handle all the steels I've used no problem. I haven't tried any real tough stuff but shouldn't have any problems. Even with softer steels though, if the binder is too loose and not a high enough concentration of abrasives you can have some issues. The first jointer stone I bought was listed as "soft" and it didn't work worth a darn on any steel for freehanding. The binder was too soft and crumbly. It would grind, but could not form a clean apex. At 3600 RPM probably worked very well. I went with the hardest one available after that and it turned out to be a keeper.

Many variables that go into this sort of thing and I don't pretend to have a solid grasp, maybe I should do some closer examination. To me, stropping, lapping, grinding, sanding all sort of overlap in a jumble, with very few "pure" examples of each operation. All depends on particle type, mobility, firmness of the backing, presence of mud or binders, etc etc....

HH
 
I like those stones, HH! Great vid, as always. Keep 'em coming. :thumbup: I find myself liking softer stones more and more, and it looks like these would never load, which is why I find myself liking softer stones more and more.
 
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