Review : Running Dog Traditional Tanto

[Cliff Stamp]

Awile ago I was loaned this knife by a friend and was asked for my impressions on its cutting ability and edge retention. This is the main focus of the review. The blade isn't mine so a lot of the things I would normally do were not performed :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/running_dog_tanto.html

I may add a couple of pictures to clarify some of the grip comments.

-Cliff

 

[sing]

Nice review, Cliff. Read like the Running Dog held it's own against the baseline knife. Wonder how one of the BG42 Running Dogs (of which I have several) would have done against the ATS34 of the other knife.

Totally agree that Running Dogs fit and finish and the accompanying sheath are excellent, especially given the price asked. For a quality handmade knife and the price point, it's hard to find something better than Running Dog.

Hope their shop gets set up soon. I am waiting on a talonite Lil camper from them. Would love to see how this compares against the talonite Cricket I have from Allen Blade.

sing
AKTI #A000356

 

[Bugs3x]

Help please.

Little remains, often, of the information that is poured into the seive I used to call my memory.

A post above indicates Running Dog is moving. Am I correct in believing that RD was located in Snoqualmie, WA, and is moving to some place like Georgia or Alabama? Or, am I mixing more than metaphors these days?

Woops! Totally forgot to say that I really liked the review, Cliff. No offense, but it was really a treat to read one where the knife obviously met/exceeded your expectations for it.

Another question, whomever, if I might. I've seen 15L20 listed numerous times as one of the steels used in Damascus. I don't recall every seeing a knife blade made from that steel alone. I know it was stated that it is very similar to L6. I'm just curious as to why it isn't used more frequently than it is. I know L6 isn't the top used steel in custom knives, but am fairly sure I've seen it listed as blade steel several times. Is this just another case of ATS34/154CM?

Thanks,

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Asi es la vida

Bugs

[This message has been edited by Bugs3x (edited 05-18-2001).]

 

[sing]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">A post above indicates Running Dog is moving. Am I correct in believing that RD was located in Snoqualmie, WA, and is moving to some place like Georgia or Alabama? Or, am I mixing more than metaphors these days?
</font>

Bugs, you are mixing up Running Dog with Allen Blade. Both were located in Washington but Allen Blade has moved to the Southeastern coast. Running Dog is still in Washington but had a string of bad luck with rental space. This will be their second move in a year. Too bad. They get on a roll, generate alot of interest for their affordable, well designed pieces, and get evicted... I hope Michael, Dell and Lucky (the dog) find a new home soon. The virtual address is still the same though.

I believe the steel in question is manufactured in Sweden and is used for making saws. I have Running Dog's new featherweight model (with micarta handle added) with this steel. It cuts quite well for usual chores but, of course, the very thin blade stock has alot to do with that. It has taken on a "patina" from cutting stuff like oranges, veggies and such.

sing
AKTI #A000356

[This message has been edited by sing (edited 05-18-2001).]

 

[Cliff Stamp]

sing:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Wonder how one of the BG42 Running Dogs (of which I have several) would have done against the ATS34 of the other knife.</font>

I assume directly better, considering the finer grain of BG-42 and the additional very hard vanadium carbides. Plus depending on the knife usage you could get a point or two more hardness with BG-42 without losing functional durability, on one of the Featherweights for example.

Bugs3x :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">it was really a treat to read one where the knife obviously met/exceeded your expectations for it</font>

As it was for me to work with it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I'm just curious as to why it isn't used more frequently than it is.</font>

In regards to 15n20 over L6, it could just be availability. In regards to this steel in general, as Sing noted it will take a patina very rapidly. So it is very much a user knife as it will not stay in NIB condition unless you are *very* careful with it.

The other downside is that the higher carbon, higer alloy steels will retain a crisp shaving edge longer, however from a deformation viewpoint, as seen from the wood cutting, if you extend this to a significant blunting then the performance difference is not great and you have to factor in ease of sharpening.

As well if you are cutting very abrasive material you should see faster edge wear than on one of the high carbide, high alloy steels. I have more work planned along these lines coming up.

On the positive though, one of the main benefits of L6/15n20 was completely ignored in the review which is *extreme* shock resistance and ductility. That little blade I would bet is extremely durable.

-Cliff

 

[Casey Butt]

I'd just like to add a few points to Cliff's review (I'm the one who owns the knife).

I spent several weeks trying to track down a knife that fit exactly what I wanted. I bought it primarily for self-defense, so I really couldn't have cared less about edge retention and fine cutting performance. What mattered to me was getting a knife that had the strength to withstand high applied forces and impacts. It had to be small enough that I could carry it with me comfortably; and I also didn't want a smooth mycarta handle because I was afraid it would slip if my hand was sweaty.

Here's the problem that I most commonly encountered: Most suitable knives are in either overhardened ATS-34 (read brittle), 1084, 1095, etc. I figured I'd break them too easily (I can apply pretty high forces when I have to). Folders were out because lock strength is vastly overhyped - essentially I don't trust them. And I wasn't willing to pay over $100, so my options were limited.

15n20 is very close to L6. Which means that it would be plenty strong and insanely tough. I asked Mike Murphy (at Running Dog Knives) if he could make me a Traditional Tanto out of that and he readily agreed - no extra charge. I paid $75 US for that knife.

Mr. Murphy told me that the Traditional Tanto was NOT one of their better grinds in regards to cutting performance. As that was of lesser concern to me than strength and toughness I still went with the Traditional grind because of its advantages in that area.

When I got that knife I was immediately surprised at the obvious high level of craftsmanship and attention to detail that went into it. In all honesty, I gave it to Cliff because I didn't believe that such an apparent quality could be gotten for $75. I figured it was too good to be true and if there were any hidden flaws I could be sure that Cliff would find them.

Having spealed all that out I think it needs to be pointed out that edge retention is not one of the strengths of a 15n20 knife. And cutting ability was not my main concern when I ordered it. Yet the Sub-Sniper that it went up against was optimized for cutting performance and made of a steel that is optimized for edge retention. In other words, in a way, the Traditional Tanto's supposed weaknesses were pitted against the Sub-Sniper's strengths. In regards to the favourable comparison to the Mel Sorg blade that was more than could be hoped for.

I may be drinking from the same tainted water supply as Cliff, but I believe that ALL complete knife reviews should involve the blade being taken to the failure point. That is necessary to get a complete picture of what the knife's limitations are. It has nothing to do with abuse or what-have-you. It simply gives you an idea of the parameters that the blade can operate within. So, I wish the Tanto could have been handled much more roughly and taken to fracture. That would have given me an idea of the knife's capability to perform in the manner for which I bought it. Ofcourse, then I'd be without a knife, so that aspect will have to go undone.

It would be interesting to turn the testing around and pit the Traditional Tanto's strength's against the Sub-Sniper's weaknesses - that is impact toughness and staying in one piece under high forces.

Anyway, as you can tell, I'm very pleased with the Running Dog knife. That degree of craftsmanship at that price is EXTREMELY rare in the knife industry.

I'd like to end off my big rant with a few words about Cliff's testing and expectations in general. Cliff expects what the makers claim or imply. It's easy for a maker to impress Cliff - just be honest. Problems come about because a lot of makers make claims that their knifes can do certain things yet when Cliff subjects them to theses tasks (or tasks that generate similar stresses) they fail. So, if they don't lie they won't be exposed. If a maker calls a knife a heavy-duty utility blade then that's how it will be treated by Cliff. If the knife ISN'T capable of performing in the manner claimed of it then I would prefer for that to be exposed than to read a flowery review about how it was used by specially trained assasins in the jungles of South America. Face it, most people don't really use their knives - they place them in prominant viewing positions and treat them as if they're made of fine china.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Casey Butt:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">It would be interesting to turn the testing around and pit the Traditional Tanto's strength's against the Sub-Sniper's weaknesses - that is impact toughness and staying in one piece under high forces.</font>

Yes, and I don't think that in regards to impact toughness and dutility ATS-34 would stand very well against 15n20. It would be like me competing as a superheavy in weightlifting at the next worlds. I fit the weight class but the lifts would not be in the same league.

To be very clear though, Lynn Griffith does not over hype his blades in regards to durability. He is very clear in that they are cutting tools. In fact he is one of a very few makers that I have seen come into a discussion about his knives and correct someone who is advocating use beyond what Lynn feels is sensible.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 05-18-2001).]

 

[Running Dog]

Hello all...

Just a couple of notes straight from the dogs mouth, so to speak...

As Sing noted, we are a "virtual" knife company...Again...

But our knifemaking plans are long term and never fear, Dell, Lucky and I will be back into production as soon as we can manage it...We still have a few thousand blades we want to make

Bugs3x...It looks like we will be moving to the midwest to set up shop again, for personal reasons mostly, but the cost of doing business in Puget Sound is a motivating factor as well...

We'll miss this area, I love it, grew up here but life moves on...We had the pleasure of starting Running Dog in Ferndale, north of Bellingham, near the Canadian border surrounded by horses and with a fantastic view of Mt Baker...

Our recent move to Snoqualmie didn't work out as we had planned, but we managed to have some fun, make some knives and do the Eugene, Oregon show in style...

Recent email with Allen Blade finds him back in production in Maryland, but his wish is to eventually set up shop in Idaho, closer to his old stomping grounds...

Re: Cliff's review and the saga of 15n20...

Bellingham is the center of the logging trade in northern Washington state, and one of the companies there makes bandsaws for milling logs and lumber...

Now these aren't your everyday bandsaw blades...Often you will find them 13-20 inches wide and 90 feet long...This steel runs 0.085 to 0.125 in thickness and is made in Sweden by Sanvik and Udderholm steel companies...Sweden BTW is a traditional source of quality steel...

The 15n20 we use is pulled from the waste stream and is brand new...

Running Dog was turned on to it by Peter Strickland, a local knifmaker, but I had already heard many stories about blades made from logging sawblades...These were often made for use in Alaska and the Yukon because of their resistance to breaking when cold...And of cource it's availablity...

As you can guess by it's intended use, this steel needs to be very tough and flexable, and not fail on the occasional rock or nail...Think of it as a 1075 with 2% nickel...

So we started working with it...Both Dell and I made shop knives with it and used them hard everyday...

We developed the "Featherweight" line of knives to take advantage of this new steel, and found that we were very happy with it's performance...We individualy heat treat these knives, use an oil quench, and triple temper them to a Rc of 57-58...

After doing some research on 15n20 and L6, I found nothing but good things said about it's use as a knife steel, one article going so far as to call it the perfect knife steel...A great combination of flexability, edge retention/toughness and ease of sharpening...

Now we see 15n20 everywhere, combined with 1084 as a fully hardenable high carbon Damascus mix, such as in the work of Ed Caffery from Montana...

When Casey asked for a really tough knife, we offered to make him one from the 0.125 thick 15n20 we had on hand...

Now as a polished knife it is not stainless but does offer some stain resistance and is more likely to develop a patina than rust from normal use...For the most part, we offer this steel coated and recommend the smaller knives for general everyday light duty cutting chores...However this steel would make a great machete as pointed out by Cliff, and we'll get around to it soon...

We are very happy with the choice of the steel and have decided to offer it on as many knives as we can along with the 1084 that we normally use...

A quick note on BG-42...We have started to use the steel due to customer request, and again we are very happy with it's performance...

Rob Simonich has been nice enough to do our heat treating on this steel, it's a complicated one, but he has been doing a really nice job of it...

It comes back to us at a Rc of 60-61...So far we have found this to be a good choice of hardness for this steel...I recommend it in general for use in smaller personal use knives that you don't sharpen very often...We won't be making machetes out of it for example...

Harder to sharpen than a high carbon blade at Rc57-58, but takes a good edge and holds it well...Sal from Spyderco gives it a 9 out of 10 for stain resistance and we now are offering it as our standard stainless steel...

I want to thank Cliff for reviewing our work and the nice things he had to say (Whew!)

When Casey told me he had a friend whom he wanted to test the knife, I had no idea it was Cliff... I'm sure his interest was motivated by our choice of knife steel...

15n20 has not been commonly available in the retail knife trade, but we are happy to be using it and will continue to do so...

For a fellow without much to say, it seems you can't shut me up

Forgive the long post, but this was a good chance to go over several current topics...

For the latest news on the Running Dog quest for knifemaking glory, please sign up for our newsletter by taking the Running Dog survey at our website...

Thanks to all of our friends...

Michael, Dell and Lucky the Dog...

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Running Dog Knife Company
www.runningdogknife.bigstep.com
runningdog@dog.com