RGEI question

T

Tengu Joker

Joined
Dec 6, 2005
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I was just wondering about forums' view about reverse grip edge in SD situations ? Also is there a place on the where I can get more info on RGEI tactics ?
 
Tengu Joker said:
I was just wondering about forums' view about reverse grip edge in SD situations ? Also is there a place on the where I can get more info on RGEI tactics ?
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If you like it close range, up close and personal, reverse grip is where to be. James Keating's "Reverse Knife Grip Fighting" in his Comtech Drawpoint tapes/DVD's give a nice overview and is a great starting point. Grips are a personal choice, but it is best to be proficient at all the user grips and ranges as to cover all your bases.

Matador-
 
Matador said:
If you like it close range, up close and personal, reverse grip is where to be...

Matador-
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Reverse grip edge in is used a lot in Pekiti Tirsia Kali. Specifically it's used with a small knife as a means to hook and turn the opponent between pakal thrusts with the knife. This might be useful when your in tight quarters with more than one opponent.

Best,

Steve
 
If it has an edge, a point, it is viable in self preservation (loath the word defense) no matter the grip or placement of the edge. It is a blade and what it touches it will damage! I pay more heed to skill level rather than the tool. As to preference of grip, however she comes out is how she will be used (duress can change ones game plan quicker than crap through a goose).

A knife is like a woman, no telling what she is capable of when caressed by skilled hands!

Bow Chicka Bow Wow!!!
 
Tengu Joker said:
I was just wondering about forums' view about reverse grip edge in SD situations ? Also is there a place on the where I can get more info on RGEI tactics ?
Click to expand...

TJ-

There has been a huge amount of discussion in comparing these two concepts pretty much 99.99% of which is not based on actual life and death use but training in a controlled environment. So it's all pretty much personal opinion and preference. I prefer the edge in grip also referred to as Ice Pick, Pikal and "Psycho". This last comes from the knife attack in the shower scene in the Alfred Hitchcock movie of the same name.

A lot of theorists will tell you it's a matter of training. It's not. People who totally discount one position over the other are simply justifying why their choice works for them and not for you. I have trained both methods for several years and I know that for ME the edge in is the strongest, most effective use of reverse grip; my teacher is an advocate of the edge out position. Neither is wrong, each is right for the one using it. My teacher and I are two totally different physical beings. We move different, we have differing body mechanics and different ways of moving. He's comfortable carrying his knife in one manner, I carry in another. Each method has it's strengths and weaknesses, learn them both but know yourself well enough to know which (if either) works best for you.

For me I tend to go with the concept that this style of reverse grip fighting pretty much developed in tropical climates where people are lightly attired. You'll notice a lot of FMA practicioners wear leather gauntlets. That's because they have a lot of exposed bare skin. Here in the Pacific Northwest there are a lot of heavy coats and shirts worn, these are excellent armor against a blade; I know I've done a lot of cutting practice against sweaters, shirts and jackets of many types.

Edge out cuts on the extension, edge in cuts on the retraction. The "armor" a person is wearing may negate that cut on the extension. Attacking with the point first allows for a penetration of the "armor". If I use edge in when we're doing our drills I find that the edge of my knife is on my partner with almost every contact. As I've practiced accessing my weapon and going to attack, (as opposed to having it ready in my hand), I find that I attack with the point thrusting in and then cutting out on the retraction. I like this motion because if I thrust into an "opponent" their natural response is to pull back, but they are pulling themselves back against the edge of my knife cutting themselves. This motion is conceptually circular in nature and results in the most flowing repetitious attacks and defenses.

But again, that's just how it works for me. You might have different results.

A double edged knife would allow me to do both. Unfortunately, that's not really a legal option where I live and the way I dress.

Have fun with discovering yourself during the journey of your training.

You can learn more about reverse grip knife from any FMA or Silat schools in your area. There are lots of schools on line who will sell you materials. I would recommend James Keatings materials on reverse grip.

Tonie
 
Also, you might wanna check out some SouthNarc / Shivworks stuff on that subject, as well as Terry Trahan's blog...
 
My teacher teaches four different grips it's just that I find reverse edge in to be more natural followed by reverse edge out. I was just wondering about other viewpoints on the matter. . .
 
I train both orientations and there are some aspects of reverse grip that I like over standard grip. My preference in reverse grip is edge out.

Standard grip offers two major advantages, distance and range of motion.

As someone else mention James Keaton's Drawpoint series of videos offers reverse grip training. The Mastering Fighting Folders DVD by Michael Janich also focuses on reverse grip knife technique.
 
Serak Silat uses the edge in alot on standard and reverse grip. Really gives you lots of cutting power in grappling situations. Also check out the 2 Reverse Edge DVDs by Shivworks/South Narc. There`s alot of good material there.
 
Tonie Nichols said:
TJ-

There has been a huge amount of discussion in comparing these two concepts pretty much 99.99% of which is not based on actual life and death use but training in a controlled environment. So it's all pretty much personal opinion and preference. I prefer the edge in grip also referred to as Ice Pick, Pikal and "Psycho". This last comes from the knife attack in the shower scene in the Alfred Hitchcock movie of the same name.

A lot of theorists will tell you it's a matter of training. It's not. People who totally discount one position over the other are simply justifying why their choice works for them and not for you. I have trained both methods for several years and I know that for ME the edge in is the strongest, most effective use of reverse grip; my teacher is an advocate of the edge out position. Neither is wrong, each is right for the one using it. My teacher and I are two totally different physical beings. We move different, we have differing body mechanics and different ways of moving. He's comfortable carrying his knife in one manner, I carry in another. Each method has it's strengths and weaknesses, learn them both but know yourself well enough to know which (if either) works best for you.

For me I tend to go with the concept that this style of reverse grip fighting pretty much developed in tropical climates where people are lightly attired. You'll notice a lot of FMA practicioners wear leather gauntlets. That's because they have a lot of exposed bare skin. Here in the Pacific Northwest there are a lot of heavy coats and shirts worn, these are excellent armor against a blade; I know I've done a lot of cutting practice against sweaters, shirts and jackets of many types.

Edge out cuts on the extension, edge in cuts on the retraction. The "armor" a person is wearing may negate that cut on the extension. Attacking with the point first allows for a penetration of the "armor". If I use edge in when we're doing our drills I find that the edge of my knife is on my partner with almost every contact. As I've practiced accessing my weapon and going to attack, (as opposed to having it ready in my hand), I find that I attack with the point thrusting in and then cutting out on the retraction. I like this motion because if I thrust into an "opponent" their natural response is to pull back, but they are pulling themselves back against the edge of my knife cutting themselves. This motion is conceptually circular in nature and results in the most flowing repetitious attacks and defenses.

But again, that's just how it works for me. You might have different results.

A double edged knife would allow me to do both. Unfortunately, that's not really a legal option where I live and the way I dress.

Have fun with discovering yourself during the journey of your training.

You can learn more about reverse grip knife from any FMA or Silat schools in your area. There are lots of schools on line who will sell you materials. I would recommend James Keatings materials on reverse grip.

Tonie
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all good points... but if you know that your attacker is well padded or "armoured" (as in cold winter seasons here in Chicago) wouldn't it be wise to avoid cutting in these areas...knives can still get snagged or break and end up dropping your knife, especially if you are wearing gloves. i always advice to just go for the little open areas or not so padded parts of the body...like a forehead cut or to the cheeks. the flow of blood is a great deterrent in itself. or stabbing at the wrists with your reversed grip...also the thighs are pretty vulnerable and actually helps to slow down an attacker.

just .02 worth.
 
saint o'killers said:
all good points... but if you know that your attacker is well padded or "armoured" (as in cold winter seasons here in Chicago) wouldn't it be wise to avoid cutting in these areas...knives can still get snagged or break and end up dropping your knife, especially if you are wearing gloves. i always advice to just go for the little open areas or not so padded parts of the body...like a forehead cut or to the cheeks. the flow of blood is a great deterrent in itself. or stabbing at the wrists with your reversed grip...also the thighs are pretty vulnerable and actually helps to slow down an attacker.

just .02 worth.
Click to expand...

Absolutely correct. All those dangers exist. In sparring I've seen knives disarmed under absolutely every kind of situation.

But it appears to me that in a real fight you take what you can get. Targeting and targets are very dependent upon the angle, distance and posture of the moment. You can sweep an arm through by going over or under it or you can stick a blade in it instead as you sweep, the choice is yours. Fighting is a tremendously dynamic situation and as often as not when I've targeted my sparring partners hands they have moved and I've hit their arms instead. I've also found the opposite to be true. Targeting the face also depends upon the other fellows movement, watch a boxing match.

I am only 5"4", my teacher is about 6'1". Even in reverse grip he has a substantial advantage on me. If I don't deal with his knife hand and arm I can't get to his face or body. At least not without getting hit myself. This is painful with wooden trainers so I wouldn't want it to happen with live steel. I generally have to work my way in by going up the arm somehow. I prefer going up it with my point.
 
I know you have to train for as many variables as possible but I HATE tall sparring partners (I'm 5'5) because attacking someone with that kind of reach advantage is almost always painful.
 
Tengu Joker said:
I know you have to train for as many variables as possible but I HATE tall sparring partners (I'm 5'5) because attacking someone with that kind of reach advantage is almost always painful.
Click to expand...

Saint brought up some really excellent, and totally valid points. One I wanted to expand on was his comments about going to the thighs. In this case I like to think of thighs and crotch.

I hear ya' on that height advantage thing, but at 5"4" what choices do I have. I've never been attacked by anybody smaller than me.

Our class has a number of 20 something guys who are in peak physical shape, all with some real good empty hand skills and all in the 5'8' range. I'm a 55 year old overweight guy who developed a form of muscular dystrophy a little over two years ago. I can't even begin to match these guys physically, but I have one huge advantage that scares the crap out of them. Their all head hunters, wrestlers and kickers; going for their zippers with a trainer sends them into spasms of squeals. They have a very hard time thinking about breaking plane to accomplish serious damage so they're never really looking for it. Point work and the inverted edge stuff is perfect for this.

One other thing I don't care for with the RGEO is that even if you are meeting an incoming target you are still pushing it away from you as you are attempting to cut it. With the RGEI you are always pulling it into you as you cut against it. In practice, nobody seems to notice that I have RGEI, it's like they assume you have RGEO. Sometimes I will start with RGEO for appearance and shift orientation before contact. So when I hook them with the blade, they immediately jerk back. Then I break contact and show them my edge orientation.

Each has it's advantages and disadvantages, learn to use both.
 
You may want to take a look at the stuff by Ray Floro who uses a reverse edge in grip that still allows him the extra reach of a standard grip for thrusts.

Shaun
 
medic said:
You may want to take a look at the stuff by Ray Floro who uses a reverse edge in grip that still allows him the extra reach of a standard grip for thrusts.

Shaun
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a BIIIG +1 on Ray Floro!... He will truly change your perspective! really got me to believe and although I cannot dictate real life situations, if i had a choice i'd use a lot of Ray's stuff...

also, you may want to check out Southnarc's as well at Shivworks! you can see his stuff at youtube (which he designed a RGEI knife with Spyderco... great stuff

good luck
 
Hello Everyone,

I highly endorse Ray Floro and his method for reverse grip kinfe work. You cannot go wrong, and as well Sayoc Kali for additional work as well.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve

ps: It's been too long since I have been on this forum!
 
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