RHC's Revealed!

atavist

atavist

Joined
Nov 29, 2012
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232
Got my Ames Model 4 RHC tester today....

obviously I tested a bunch of my own stuff but that's not what this thread is about... Decided to grab the few production blades that I have on hand and see where they come in at...

Blades tested today:
Zombie Tools, Tainto: They recently discontinued this blade but my wife had it from way back... I always liked the styling but noticed it didn't hold much of an edge... well now I know why... 48RC

GK&CO Kukri, American Eagle:... Now I've actually been a big fan of GK Kukri for some years... I always liked supporting a 3rd world endeavor that supposedly makes a hand crafted quality product... unfortunately I was duped. 32RC!! Yup... so either they didn't heat treat it at all or the leaf springs they are using don't harden.... They do admit to using leaf springs... just goes to show why "mystery steel" is not OK... no way to KNOW what you have.

KABAR, USMC issue: I think the packaging when I got it said 58RC... spec'd in dead on... Good Job KABAR!

I'm going to start hitting all my friends up to let me test their production knives.... will post results here when they do.

This is neither to support or defame anyone or any company... it's just for my own curiosity.
I'll report the good along with the bad.
 
atavist said:
Got my Ames Model 4 RHC tester today....

obviously I tested a bunch of my own stuff but that's not what this thread is about... Decided to grab the few production blades that I have on hand and see where they come in at...

Blades tested today:
Zombie Tools, Tainto: They recently discontinued this blade but my wife had it from way back... I always liked the styling but noticed it didn't hold much of an edge... well now I know why... 48RC

GK&CO Kukri, American Eagle:... Now I've actually been a big fan of GK Kukri for some years... I always liked supporting a 3rd world endeavor that supposedly makes a hand crafted quality product... unfortunately I was duped. 32RC!! Yup... so either they didn't heat treat it at all or the leaf springs they are using don't harden.... They do admit to using leaf springs... just goes to show why "mystery steel" is not OK... no way to KNOW what you have.

KABAR, USMC issue: I think the packaging when I got it said 58RC... spec'd in dead on... Good Job KABAR!

I'm going to start hitting all my friends up to let me test their production knives.... will post results here when they do.

This is neither to support or defame anyone or any company... it's just for my own curiosity.
I'll report the good along with the bad.
Click to expand...
Kuks are differentially hardened. Did you test the harder sweet spot? Part of the belly towards the handle.
 
I originally took the reading.in the center of.the blade... was unaware they are differentially treated... just went back out and took some more readings.... 38rc dead center, 32rc as near the tip edge as I can get (can't test the steepest part of the bevel, and a whopping 16rc (no I didn't write it backwards) on the ricasso...
Also did a test block to make sure something whack isn't going on... calibration is good.

My best guess... the metal (leaf springs) they are using are off a newer car and are not 5160, but instead some spring alloy that does not harden the same... any heat treat that was done was ruined at the ricasso when they welded/soldered the guard.
 
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Very enlightening, how large is the test divot the tester leaves? It will be fun to watch what all the future blades you test come in at. 16 is perfect for batoning butter at room temperature :thumbup:
 
atavist said:
I originally took the reading.in the center of.the blade... was unaware they are differentially treated... just went back out and took some more readings.... 38rc dead center, 32rc as near the tip edge as I can get (can't test the steepest part of the bevel, and a whopping 16rc (no I didn't write it backwards) on the ricasso...
Also did a test block to make sure something whack isn't going on... calibration is good.

My best guess... the metal (leaf springs) they are using are off a newer car and are not 5160, but instead some spring alloy that does not harden the same... any heat treat that was done was ruined at the ricasso when they welded/soldered the guard.
Click to expand...
Wow. That is super low then.
Would I be able to tell that when I use such a blade for chopping? Just guessing but the edge would probably roll very fast?
Also looking forward to more tests on other knives.
:D
 
Still a fan of banana puddin'...32 Rc seems appropriate for that grind style.
 
Jens Schuetz said:
Wow. That is super low then.
Would I be able to tell that when I use such a blade for chopping? Just guessing but the edge would probably roll very fast?
Also looking forward to more tests on other knives.
:D
Click to expand...

Its a pretty steep sabre grind... it won't roll will just dull quickly. ..

I don't think 32 is appropriate for anything that is meant to cut/chop if it was mid 40s it would be forgivable... but low to mid 30s... i'm still in shock.
 
The reading on the khuk is stunning. The "traditional" method is said to involve heating the blade to the "right" color and then poring water of the "right" temperature down the cutting edge - usually with a tea kettle or pitcher.

Seems like the kami in this case didn't know his stuff -- or the steel had too little carbon to allow hardening.
 
Thomas Linton said:
The reading on the khuk is stunning. The "traditional" method is said to involve heating the blade to the "right" color and then poring water of the "right" temperature down theô cutting edge - usually with a tea kettle or pitcher.

Seems like the kami in this case didn't know his stuff -- or the steel had too little carbon to allow hardening.
Click to expand...

Really??
That explains it then... thats the dodgiest HT practice i've ever heard of...
with a full bodied heat at around 1500f, with the thermal mass that these knives have, I can't imagine thatb you could possibly miss the pearlite nose with this method... not even with water...

I think when I have some spare time this summer I might chisel the handle off and attempt to do a proper HT on the kukri to determine if.there is also a steel issue.
 
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Odd. I've got two HI kuk's and both seem to hold an edge very well. The 18" AK went through several 8" fresh maple logs after a wind storm before needing a touchup. May have something to do with the quality of the maker.
 
Law of Thirds said:
Odd. I've got two HI kuk's and both seem to hold an edge very well. The 18" AK went through several 8" fresh maple logs after a wind storm before needing a touchup. May have something to do with the quality of the maker.
Click to expand...
No doubt. I got one which cut dried California oak, the nastiest stuff I ever chopped and it was still cutting paper afterwards (with the same part of the edge)
Also some guy tested a few HI blades and they are all great.
 
I think this is a really good idea, and probably should have been done sooner for some manufacturers.
It would be really interesting if you could get a hold of some blades from really popular and larger manufacturers, so we could see how consistent their blades are in a broad sense.

It would be really interesting if you got a hold of some of the Zero Tolerance knives in Elmax that had been reported to have issues with burnt edges and checked to see how much that actually effected the hardness of the blade. I doubt anyone would like to have a blade like that tested in multiple areas though, considering that even with the burnt edges, the knife is still not very cheap to get a hold of.

Also, it would be excellent information if we could see how some of the more expensive steels in some production knives (M390, S90V, Vanax 75, S110V, etc.) were hardened.

Of course, hardness does not tell us everything about the heat treat, but I would be really interested to know more about it with precise information, and you can get a general idea of the properties of the steel if you know the compostition and the hardness of the steel, or at least if the company is making their blades properly and consistently.

I wouldn'tbe out to point any fingers either, but it is also good information for both us and the manufacturers to have, since they obviously aren't going to be testing every blade that leaves their factory (with the exception of Rockstead, becuase they actually do test all of their blades).
 
Law of Thirds said:
Odd. I've got two HI kuk's and both seem to hold an edge very well. The 18" AK went through several 8" fresh maple logs after a wind storm before needing a touchup. May have something to do with the quality of the maker.
Click to expand...

Jens Schuetz said:
No doubt. I got one which cut dried California oak, the nastiest stuff I ever chopped and it was still cutting paper afterwards (with the same part of the edge)
Also some guy tested a few HI blades and they are all great.
Click to expand...

I'm no expert when it come to kukri design or production, but from what I do know, I would say that it's highly likely that there is some serious variability in the way they are made, and it is highly likely that once in a while there will be one that comes out like the one that atavist tested.

I think that there is always a good amount of variability in any hand-made, and especially hand-forged steel, but by the nature of how HI kukris are made, you will likely see more in them than something that was made by someone else here in the sates. Especially since we have an active network of people who will actively test and voice their experiences here, and most of the people who make larger numbers of knives are aware of our community, which is likely not the case for whoever is making that perticular knife.

Again, if I am blatantly wrong on any of this, please let me know. I have a limited amount of knowledge when it comes to traditionally made Kukris.
 
If anyone wants me to send me a knife to test (and return to them) I will gladly post the results.... keep in mind rick well testing.does use a diamond penetrator and it will.leave a pin prick mark on the blade or ricasso or where ever I test.
 
Charr said:
I think that there is always a good amount of variability in any hand-made, and especially hand-forged steel, but by the nature of how HI kukris are made, you will likely see more in them than something that was made by someone else hand-forged ( sates. Especially since we have an active network of people who will actively test and voice their experiences here, and most of the people who make larger numbers of knives are aware of our community, which is likely not the case for whoever is making that perticular knife.

Again, if I am blatantly wrong on any of this, please let me know. I have a limited amount of knowledge when it comes to traditionally made Kukris.
Click to expand...

Its not handmade blades that are inherently variable... its handmade blades that are made with no controls or a lack of experience... I've tested a couple of Caffrey knives and they are dead on the same 58rc edge 38 spine... my own are slightly more variable but within a point or two of target... now that I have the Ames I plan to get dialed in much tighter... and all my blades are 100% hand-forged and hand crafted (no power hammer, or machine tools other than a grinder... and no jigs or guides).

What is important is consistency in operations and practice, practice, test, and more practice..
 
atavist said:
Its not handmade blades that are inherently variable... its handmade blades that are made with no controls or a lack of experience... I've tested a couple of Caffrey knives and they are dead on the same 58rc edge 38 spine... my own are slightly more variable but within a point or two of target... now that I have the Ames I plan to get dialed in much tighter... and all my blades are 100% hand-forged and hand crafted (no power hammer, or machine tools other than a grinder... and no jigs or guides).

What is important is consistency in operations and practice, practice, test, and more practice..
Click to expand...

I didn't mean to sound like I meant anything besides what you have said really. When I say variability, I don't as much mean that there isn't a way to make the blade all the same hardness, but more that the nature of the blade itself, including the steel, the grinds, the hammering, the overall shaping, and the hardness, are inherently more likely to vary from one example to another when the knife is hand-forged.
I am not going to say that a master of a forge will have a decernable variation in their knives. Most likely, their blades will be insanely precise, from the shear amount of experience that they have in making blades.
What I meant is that the process in general lends itself to a much higher overall variability.

Someone who is trained in anything can make an extremely precise end result, but they have to fail and learn many times and gain that experience before they truly reach that level, where-as a machine only has to be programmed correctly, and be built correctly, and its level or precision is likely to be much higher from the first try, and only get better as processes are refined. Not to mention the fact that a forged steel can have varying structure if the forging is not done correctly, which adds another level of difficulty to the process.
I prefer something made by humand hands when I can get it, and I deeply respect the ability of those who work as hard as many of the people (yourself included) who work steel into art. I was only saying that there is more of a chance to find differences or errors in what is made by hand than what is not, to a certain point. If the proper amount of time and effort is put into a handmade product, then it will exceed a mass-produced equivelant in almost all cases in terms of quality and precision. The difference is in how much care it taken.
Simply the fact that handmade blades do depend on the amount of experience the person making them has inclines them to be statistically more variable than something that is not made by hand, but by precision machine. The machine will make more faster, and there will be inconsistencies in the product, but it will be a lower amount of overall inconsistency than the equivilant product being made by a given number of people who make it by hand because there will be some of those people who will not have the experience, or perhaps will lack the time, needed to make a consistent product.

Honestly I agree with you entirely in that practice, cosistency, and testing are the keys for handmade products, but it is the natural fault of humans to make mistakes, and that was all I was saying.
I was in no way trying to imply that hand-made knives were inferior to something made under machines or otherwise mass-produced. Simply that hand-made goods as a whole were naturally going to be inclined to variability, especially when you don't know exactly who is making the product/knife/good.
 
Gotcha...
You are right.. and unfortunately for many the motive is the all mighty dollar so quantity is more important than quality .
 
If you are making khukuri for local use, your reputation (livelihood) depend on the quality of your work. Make dead soft edges and you won't be making many.

When you start at age 6-8, you are likely pretty good after 30-50 years.

If your employer holds you to a high-quality standard as a condition of employment and keeps you around, access to the "all mighty dollar" is through quality work.

I suspect that most of us here depend on the good reputation of the maker or understand that we are gambling. HI has a good reputation for quality.
 
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