Ricasso Question

S

shane justice

Joined
May 12, 2003
Messages
1,606
I am working on a scandahoovian style knife...it is a basic short, straight blade with a brass "spacer" at the blade/handle junction. It will have a wood handle. My intent is to use it as a shop knife, so nothing fancy.

While I was working on the spacer, I started wondering how to permanently attach it to the blade without affecting the hardened portion of the blade, which runs right up to the brass.

Then I began to think about the idea behind the ricasso. Is the ricasso solely there to act as a heat sink for the soldering process or does it have an actual use in modern knives?

Is there a general rule of thumb regarding the scale of the ricasso in proportion to the height or length of the blade?

Shane
 
The ricasso is as you wish it to be. I do not believe it has any specific purpose as to heat sinking and also would not be well at doing so anyhow. I view the ricasso as a delimeter between hilt and bevel but is not essential at all depending on design. When soldering heat sink with artifial heat sinks attached to ricasso area.

RL
 
Hey thanks Roger. Seem like a well thought out answer. I was going back and forth between low temp solder or JB WELD...damn I hate JB WELD....

I think I'll try the heat sink idea....would it be better to use the paste...or a "mechanical" sink?

We most both be up late doing our computer stuff.

Shane
 
Well, I go in cycles it seems. Sometimes I get up at 4:30AM and sometimes I get up at 4:30PM. Full time has messed my days and nights up. After I become more experienced at it I should settle better into a regular schedule.

I would not use a paste as a heat sink. I have used heavy clamps or better small but heavy enough vises. You have to provide a dense enough mass so as to not comprimise the edge temper. I can say with certain confidence that only epoxying bolsters or guards without mechanical security will fail. I can recommend doing it but only with some extra machening and pinning. In soldering I might recommend practicing before doing so to your blade. I would use a silver solder and a good flux suitable for that.

RL
 
The ricasso is a transition area between the guard and blade.It comes from swords and large knives of old,where strength at the guard was paramount.It allowed the seating of the guard,ease of sharpening (without the guard getting in the way),and a thicker area to avoid the blade snapping off at the highest stress point (the guard).It only needs to be large enough to allow these things.On a large sword -3",on a large bowie - 1",on a hunter -1/2",on kitchen knives -0".In the modern knife ,design is more important .The ricasso should look proper,with the choil accenting it.I find too many new makers putting too long a ricasso,and putting the choil between the ricasso and blade,instead of on the ricasso.
Stacy
 
I'm with Stacy on the ricasso proportions. I just messed it up and know better now. :)

As to heat sink, I've used the paste with good effect; I much prefer it to clamping metal to the blade simply because it won't mess up your finish - if you get if off as soon as you're done soldering. It will leave an etched space that you'll have to clean up but it's less a problem than the flux is.

Assuming you're backing up the guard with a good tight handle, and that your slot fits well, I see no problem using JB Weld to seal the joint between guard and blade. That's my prefered method over soldering any day...but then I suck at soldering. Cleaning up JB Weld is so much simpler than cleaning up a solder joint! But you have to have a lot of confidence in your fit up.
 
Great stuff.

The guard on this knife has a tight lock up so far... got it down to about a quarter inch 'til it meets the shoulders...going slow so I don't muck it up...

I am pretty awful at soldering...but feel like it is the right way to go for me, so I am trying to get it right. I spose JB Weld has a place too...

Stacy, great explaination about the original use of the ricasso...I put a longe ricasso on now and again...mostly on purpose for customers who want the space to choke up. Normally mine are a bit to short because I file them down too much trying to get my guards to fit properly! :D

Honestly Roger, I don't ever figure sleep patterns ever settle down. Normally I run like h*ll...then crash..and then run again....sleep when I have to...eat when I can... bet most of the guys on here are the same way.

Hang In! In a lot of ways you are a guinea pig for some of us part-timers. You are showing us if it can be done ...and what it takes to go full-time.

Shane
 
bladsmth said:
I find too many new makers putting too long a ricasso,and putting the choil between the ricasso and blade,instead of on the ricasso.
Stacy
Click to expand...

This is drifting off the origional topic, sorry, but I wanted to disagree with this point (all the rest of what you said is dead on). The choil is supposed to be between the ricasso and the blade, it serves as a sharpening aid so you can sharpen all of the edge without running up the plunge slope. Some people call the finger grooves choils also, but I don't call it that since it serves a different purpose, those should be on the ricasso so you don't cut yourself if your finger slips.
 
I didn't mean that it should be in the ricasso,I meant that the choil should be the point where the blade edge meets the ricasso.As you said it facilitates sharpening.I often see the choil completely on the edge (sometimes 1/2" from the ricasso),with no transition to the ricasso,that was what I was referring to.This position moves the actual blade edge too far from the guard,creating the impression of a very long ricasso.I should have said "at the ricasso",not "on the ricasso.Thanks for calling that to my attention. - Stacy
 
Subjects in, around, and about the ricasso are ok by me....

There has been a lot written lately about what a choil is...I think it was in Wayne Goddards column in Blade magazine.

I prefer to refer to the ricasso as the flat area of the blade between the guard face and the plunge line. I have always believed the choil to be the edge or spine portion of the ricasso.

I have heard the term "choil" used for finger grooves on the "bottom" of the ricasso more than the reference to it as the little half circle notch most commonly found on the blades of pocket knives.

As to the originasl idea of a ricasso as a heat sink...

If a ricasso was originally a sword term...I think a aprt of a specialized vocabulary for rapiers...why did it carry over to modern blades?

Is it just a traditional thing? Or has it grown to be an expcected part of the form?

Shane
 
As blades became smaller and more utilitarian,with the end of hand to hand warfare,much of the terminology stayed the same.Thus we have pommels, hilts,quillions, ricassos,bolsters, etc.;even on pocket knives.
I agree that the finger notch is referred to as a "choil" far to often.One problem is that there seems to be no distinct definition for "choil".
While a ricasso does provide some heat sinking when soldering,that is not its purpose.Good soldering technique will not harm the temper on the blade.Most people use about ten times the heat (in BTUs not degrees)needed to get a good solder joint.The solder melts at 480,your propane torch runs at 2000+.The flux burns at 700.Now you know why the solder won't flow!! If the joint is heated to 500,the blade edge should not even reach the temperature it was tempered at (approx.400).With even moderate heat sinking,of any type,there is no danger to the edge hardness.Heat the tang slowly and the solder will flow like water when it reaches its flow point.
 
Stacy, Your thoughts on the temps for soldering are approprita...I bung that one up a lot...get too much heat...and the soledr just don't go...

As an afterthought...

Maybe somebody could do a glossary of frequently used terms for BladeForums...that way it could standrdize our terms...so there would be confusion...maybe?

Shane
 
Shane, sorry for falling behind in responding to your kind, yet observing, responce ;). As a labratory watch I would be a poor example. I am unique in that all my children are grown and gone and my monthly incumbrances are rather small. I operate a 800 dollar truck, which I only owe 200 bucks on. That is my vehicle and all I have with wheels on it. My house, rent, is $245 per mo.. I have utilties and nothing else of special mention. Yes I will make it so long as I can keep grinding. I will also be happy at doing it. As experience progresses I wil be able to take an occassional day off and maybe some additional evenings off per week. It is the best work I have ever enjoyed and do not wish to look back.

RL
 
Press Fit?

Is that where after you f@#k up the guard you put it in the press and make it fit? :eek:
 
Hey Nick,
When you say press fit...I go a little fuzzy.
I have heard of folks press them on from the tang, say the last really tight quarter of an inch...or squasy them on with a hammer and a drift...or a press...and I have heard of folks crimping them in from the sides...when there is a bit of gap...

WHich one are you talking about?...

Shane
 
Bill,

I believe that's an Idaho press fit ;)

Nick is talking about a guard that needs no solder b/c all tolerances are extremely tight. Push, not hammer, it into place and seal for moisture with JB Weld (Nick mentioned silicone too but I haven't tried that). But somehow I think you knew all this :cool:

BTW, Terry Primos has a great tutorial on this.

John Frankl
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top