Rifle and Pistol accuracy

wildmanh

wildmanh

Part time Leather Bender/Sheath maker
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Jul 9, 2000
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I've noticed a lot of people talking about Fire Arms accuracy recently and was wondering a few things...

What is accuracy to you? Is it being about to hit the same spot over and over? How big is that spot? Or is it something else?

The Ruger 10/22 is being talked about a lot or maybe since I'm starting to shoot mine again I just notice it more. So what kinds of groups can you get with your stock model with or with out scope and at what distance? Targets showing the groups would be helpfull to me. A scope is the one upgrade you can add to the gun and still qualify. IMO it doesn't change the way the gun shoots, just the way you shoot.

Sure other actions on a .22 might have better out of the box accuracy from a rest but thats not what I'm asking. I ask what do you feel is accurate or accurate enough? Also does that change depending on if it's target shooting or hunting? Can it change from firearm to firearm?

2 years ago I got back into guns after taking a 6 to 8 year break. I started with pistols and have just recently been trying to do Rifles. They are enough different to me to warrent lots of practice. :) I can honestly say that if I do my part my Springfield 1911 will keep 5 shots in a 1" circle at 7 yards. My Single Six and .357/9mm Convertible Blackhawk can do that at 10 yards if I do my part. Whats that all mean? To me that means I need to practice more at longer distances. LOL!!

Thanks,

Heber
 
I think we have differing expectations depending on what we're shooting and why.
Obviously, a guy toting a Model 94 in heavy brush might have a differing expectation than say a hunter in the Rockies after mountain goat.

Likewise a pistolero who intended to compete in target competition would have a different standard than someone sticking a .38 snubbie in his waistband as he made a night deposit....

I've always sort of expected my various weapons to shoot better than I do...
If I miss I'd like to think it was my fault rather than the weapon.
 
I always cringe when I see an internet accuracy thread. Invariably we'll end up with someone posting something like: "I can hit an asprin at 100 yards with my ______ pistol, and I can split hairs at 1000 yards with my ________ rifle."

For me accurate enough is being able to consistently hit man sized silhouettes at defensive distances while stationary and on the move with my handguns, and being able to hit a deer in the vitals at decent range with my rifles.

There are plenty of people who can shoot more accurately than accurate enough, but I think that if you can shoot as I described above, you're doing fine.

As for 10/22's, out of the box, they are all right out to about 50 yards, and with some tweaking and aftermarket parts, they are very very accurate at around 50 yards. I never really shoot for groups past that with a .22, so I can't tell you about anything longer than 50 yards with a 10/22.
 
Neither of my 10/22s are stock so I can't help there but I know with the mods I have made this is what I expect



Out of my Browning Buckmark I get this type of accuracy...



My iron sighted 635 is capable of groups like this at 30 yards, that is with a pretty hot load btw...

45supertargetcopydg1.jpg


My Glenn Custom 686 shot this 2 1/4 inch 100 yard group, not bad for a pistol...



S&W 460 8 3/8inch iron sights at 100 yards just over 2 1/2



As you can see I expect my guns to shoot. My competition handguns need to be able to keep 1 to 1 1/2 inch groups at fifty yards, carry guns will do the same at 30. My hunting rifles need to hold MOA or better, military arm no more than 1 1/2 MOA. My 22CHeetaH is rapidly approaching the need for a rebarrel as the groups from it have opened up to 3/8 of an inch at 100 yards, the barrel is showing the effects of the high velocity I use to push the 53 grain bullets out of it. If a gun does not meet my standards for accuracy I either fix it so it will or I sell it.

I spent a good number of years shooting at the national level so I am, perhaps, a bit picky but to quote Townsend Whelen "only accurate guns are interesting".
 
Accuracy is relative to the job at hand. Speed may be more important. Like it is has been said "If you are shooting tiny groups you are shooting too slow."

My Glock is accurate enough for pistol work and my custom built .308 rifle is accurate enough for Rifle work. Both are 'predicatable' and that is accuracy to me. Being able to predict the shot.

What makes you happy? I have found that many times the gun is much more accurate than the shooter, So maybe the question should be, how accurate are you?

Badge54
 
Scopes don't make you shoot better, they make you see better. Shooting is as much discipline as it is any sort of sight. The Boers could hit Brits at 1200 yards with irons.

Accuracy is a function of consistency, practice, and training. Nothing more.
 
they have better eyes than me i couldnt see a brit or anyone else at 1200 yards lol.

i do enjoy shooting at steel plates (18") at 300 yards with irons, usually either a AK47, AK74 or AR15, it really gives ya a sense of accomplishment to consistantly hit the plates with something like an AK, folks will tell ya ya cant hit a barn at 250 or 300 yards w/a AK, they are very wrong.

but i dont think i could see 4X that distance, much less hit anything, even a barn lol, the boers were helluva good shots.
 
It wasn't that they could see the riders, as much as they knew the trajectory of the round, and painted easily seen white rocks at hundred yard intervals. :D

The Marines engaged Germans in WWI at similar distances, causing the Germans to complain about how "unfair" it was.

Once you know your weapon, and know how the thing works, it becomes a matter of repetition. I used to be amazed in the Army about how people would strain to hit the 300 yard pop ups, when the 500 yard stage in the Marines was considered a "gimme" stage, and the snipers would regularly show off, (at Stone Bay ranges anyway) by shooting offhand at the 600 yard line, and hit bulls.

We've by and large let our marksmanship lack in this country, mainly due to the lack of ranges, and the decline of big bore long range shooting.

I only have 200 yards available near me, except for a once a year jaunt to the desert to hit rocks at 6-800 yards in Idaho. Very fun with my Enfield. Incredible how accurate that rifle is.
 
Badge54 said:
Accuracy is relative to the job at hand. Speed may be more important. Like it is has been said "If you are shooting tiny groups you are shooting too slow."

Badge54
Click to expand...

While it is true a slow hit is better than a fast miss, a fast hit is better yet. The Glocks do have a good rep for accuracy. They are about the last auto I would choose but that is simply due to ergonomics not quality, they have never pointed well for me. Last time I was shooting jello with Evan Marshall he made a statement that made sense..."Self defense guns just need to shoot minute of felon". In other words if you can shoot center mass on a B-29 or similar target that is good enough. Once you can do that everytime then practice till you can do it faster.

But while minute of felon is good for SD I do like my guns to shoot well, rifles and competition guns in particular. If I am confident my guns will hit where I point them then it is one less thing I have to think about when trying to shoot for time.

My range time is normally split between combat drills and fun shooting. Combat means just that, El Presidente drills, walking drills, cover drills, combat reloads, ball and dummy, etc. The rest of my range time is spent tuning up my target guns, plate shooting, blowing up water jugs, running pin tables, and so on. I don't shoot near as much as I did 10 years ago when I was shooting professionally but I still get out every week or so. Shooting well is a perishable skill, muscle memory fades so regular practice is require to stay tuned up.
 
Absintheur said:
While it is true a slow hit is better than a fast miss, a fast hit is better yet. The Glocks do have a good rep for accuracy. They are about the last auto I would choose but that is simply due to ergonomics not quality, they have never pointed well for me. Last time I was shooting jello with Evan Marshall he made a statement that made sense..."Self defense guns just need to shoot minute of felon". In other words if you can shoot center mass on a B-29 or similar target that is good enough. Once you can do that everytime then practice till you can do it faster.

But while minute of felon is good for SD I do like my guns to shoot well, rifles and competition guns in particular. If I am confident my guns will hit where I point them then it is one less thing I have to think about when trying to shoot for time.

My range time is normally split between combat drills and fun shooting. Combat means just that, El Presidente drills, walking drills, cover drills, combat reloads, ball and dummy, etc. The rest of my range time is spent tuning up my target guns, plate shooting, blowing up water jugs, running pin tables, and so on. I don't shoot near as much as I did 10 years ago when I was shooting professionally but I still get out every week or so. Shooting well is a perishable skill, muscle memory fades so regular practice is require to stay tuned up.
Click to expand...

My "range" is down back in the woods on my property... not fun in the deep snow of winter... Here is a little trick I've learned to keep that muscle memory and sight picture in tip top shape when I can't shoot real rounds. My Glock 19 is equipped with a LaserGrip and I practice all winter in doors with an empty gun. Moving from the ready position, to sight on target, then a slight squeeze of the laser in lew of firing a round, tells me where my round WOULD have hit (approximately). Now of course this procedure is NO substitute to sending real rounds down range, but it DOES keep your eye proficient, and it DOES help keep that muscle memory intact. I've found that I shoot MUCH better come spring by this exercise. Actually, it's a MUST for me as I'm one of those poor souls who is strong left eye dominant but shoots a hand gun right-handed (both eyes open).
 
Absintheur, thank you for your side and including pictures. Most helpfull.

Badge54 your comment made me think.... How accurate am I? at 5 to 7 yards I'm pretty good with a pistol. 12 yards I need some work. My brother inlaw told me something last time we went shooting that should help... I was shooting point of aim but the guns we had with us were sighted in at 6 o'clock. He watched each shot I made and noticed that I raised the barrel or the gun after the first shot and thats why I wasn't getting the group I expected. Want to say I was getting 2" to 3" groups with 125 grain .38's at aproximately 12 paces (I'm 6' 5" so long stride) out of my Marlin 1894 and maybe a little better with the Henry .22 Levergun. Second time with the Marlin but first with the Henry. Aperently I wasn't as good as I thought I was, I need to get better.

Right now with my rifles I'm pretty sure I couldn't make a kill shot on a deer at 50 to 75 yards in one shot... Unless it's a lucky shot. The muzzel wanders to much on me at times, I'm not holding steady like I should.

Heber
 
i agree with the assessments on accuracy here, especially with the 10/22.

I always way overscoped my rifles. I can't see well at all, but If I can see, I can hit. I spent 18 months on chemo, and saved my little vials to use as targets on a 50yar range I put up at my house. I also had a sack full of little plastic army guys. I found it therapuetic to blow them up with a 22 from my back porch. My field of vision was way too limited for any real-world application, but it felt good to see something and blow it up:)
 
If you looked at the pic of my 10/22s you have noticed some differences. The red white and blue is wearing a heavy Fajen laminated stock, heavy barrel, and a large scope. This is a heavy rifle and has a good varmint quality 4X16 scope on it, it will hit ground squirrels out to 200 yards. It is my target 22. The other one is the exact opposite. I was looking for lightweight and it wieghs less than a stock Ruger does by 1 .4 pounds, I can shoot this offhand like a pistol! The stock is skeletonized, the barrel is tensioned aluminum with steel liner, and the scope is a 2 power red dot from TruGlo. I shoots almost as well as my target 10/22 but is set up for fast speed targets.

One of the best practice drill you can do at the range is ball and dummy. Fact is we all flinch, it is how bad and how often we flinch that can cause problems. Nest time you are at the range with a friend have them load your gun using a couple of dummies. In a revolver you can just use fired cases. You can quickly determine a flinch using this method.
 
Call me anal, but this is one of my pet peeves, accuracy and precision. Accuracy is the ability to "put something" where you want it to go, precision is the ability to repeat the same results over and over.

Guys shooting sub-MOA groups are extremely precise, but unless they're putting the groups in the center of the bull, they're not very accurate.

A precision rifle in the hands of a true marksman is extremely accurate. A precision rifle in my hands is not much better than my kid's slingshot! ;)

I'll agree that we have lost much in our national makeup when it comes to marksmanship. I only have access to 150 yards and wish I could do something even close to impressive at that distance. I'm usually happy to hit a pie plate!

J-
 
I believe that Cooper said you could be happy with your marksmanship, if you could hit a paper plate 100 yards away, standing unsupported, offhand. Every time.
 
I went pistol shooting in the woods about 10 years ago, and learned something by accident. I found it interesting, I hope you do.

I had some paper targets, we put them on stumps and fallen dead trees, and had a lot of fun. Then we put a target on a paced 100 yds away stump, across a small valley, so we were shooting into the hill. We were able to put (on average) 1 out of 6 shots into the target, 8.5 x 11 inch paper. I then, for the lack of a better target, stuck a stick into the ground and put an empty pepsi can on the stick, about 3 ft up. Without realizing it, the 100 yd paper target was in line behind the pepsi can. The pepsi can was about 15 yds away, I put all six shots into it (Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 mag). I looked up, and realized that the paper target was right in line behind the can. I hit the paper 5 out of 6.

It can be done.
 
My 10/22 will consistently pop golf balls at 50 yards with Federal bulk-pack. Actually, it's a bit beyond fifty, since they usually climb halfway up the backstop.

I can't really settle down enough to shoot it for groups. I hate the whole "shoot five rounds, walk down and see how you did," thing. (I need a spotting scope:rolleyes: ) And then you can only wonder if the wind blew your target over a half inch between shots. With a golf ball, you see the bastard jump and you know you hit it.

I should add, I've been steadily tweaking the rifle for a while now. All parts are modified stock :)
 
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