"Rifleman's knives"

[t1mpani]

Okay, I've not run across the answer to this one--why is a Rifleman's knife called that? I mean, I know it likely has to do with the era when rifles were single shot muzzle-loaders and you might need a backup weapon of some kind, but I was just curious to know if there were a specific reason for the name. I know the Ames 1849 Rifleman's knife was an issued item, but I see examples from the Revolutionary War and before. So, have these old ones just come to be referred to as Rifleman's knives because they're similar to the later Ames version, or was the Ames just the latest in a category of knives by that name which already existed?

I guess the reason I'm interested is that I wonder why Bowie's knives gained such notoriety (obviously his fight in the bar helped it along) when others had been making large, heavy, double-guard knives long before he did.

 

[orca8589]

I have several auction books from Little John's Auctions from several years ago, and in one of them it lists several Rifleman's knives, along with a little history on them, IIRC. I'll see what I can find out and post here tomorrow.

thx - cpr

 

[Twodollarpistol]

Hello, Im new here, In fact this is my first post. I wonder if this term refers to a patch knife sharpened with the bevel on one side of the blade and the other side flat so it can cut the ball patch flush with the muzzle of a rifle without scratching or gouging the muzzle.

 

[Andrew Colglazier]

"Rifleman's knives" were a carry-over from older days when foot soldiers, armed with a main weapon such as a pike, a crossbow, a bow, or a musket, would carry a long knife or a short sword as a backup to their main weapon.

These back up weapons had two purposes - first, as a defensive weapon to be used if the lines were over run and the main weapon couldn't be brought to bear, and second, as a weapon to deliver the killing stroke to enemy soldiers who had been wounded but not killed on the battle field.

I've got one in the works for someone right now -

It has about a 16" blade at the moment, and will probably end up with a double guard of some kind.

Andy

 

[t1mpani]

Hello, Im new here, In fact this is my first post. I wonder if this term refers to a patch knife sharpened with the bevel on one side of the blade and the other side flat so it can cut the ball patch flush with the muzzle of a rifle without scratching or gouging the muzzle.

Welcome to Bladeforums, Twodollarpistol. In this case I meant the large knives somewhere between a bowie and a dirk like Andrew has pictured here, however that description you gave sounds like a brilliantly useful one.

Thanks for the information, Andrew, and I'd really like to see that one when it's finished up!

I'd also look forward to hearing what your book has to say, orca8589.

Thanks everybody!

Warren

 

[sunnyd]

Hello, Im new here, In fact this is my first post. I wonder if this term refers to a patch knife sharpened with the bevel on one side of the blade and the other side flat so it can cut the ball patch flush with the muzzle of a rifle without scratching or gouging the muzzle.

Welcome to the Forum..

I'm not 100% sure about your assumption here but it is plausible I reckon.

I love my hand-made custom traditional patch knife produced from a mill-saw sharpening file from "whitmore" 'J. Whit'

Anthony

 

[Twodollarpistol]

Welcome to the Forum..

I'm not 100% sure about your assumption here but it is plausible I reckon.

I love my hand-made custom traditional patch knife produced from a mill-saw sharpening file from "whitmore" 'J. Whit'

Anthony

Yes sir, I love that one too. Beautiful :thumbup:

 

[tongueriver]

Anthony, you can file that one under "purty ones," you bastard you.

 

[Ice Tigre]

Anthony, you can file that one under "purty ones," you bastard you.

ROFLol

 

[orca8589]

Well, I've looked through my 'library', meager as it is, and I can't find the reference I mentioned earlier.

I do remember reading (years ago, so I could be way off here) that the Army contracted the 'Rifleman's Knife' so that regular soldiers would have a piece that was consistent across the ranks, or something like that. Officers & NCO's & most horse-mounted soldiers carried short swords or sabers, so the idea was that regular rifleman could have a large knife as well. I would think that an issued bayonet would serve that purpose, but I don't know.

A little history of Ames, from armscollectors.com:
On June 5, 1832 Nathan P. Ames, Jr., then 29, signed a contract with the U.S. Ordnance Department to produce 2,000 Model 1832 Foot Artillery swords with scabbards. This was the first of a long line of edged weapons contracts that would give birth, in 1834, to the Ames Manufacturing Company of Chicopee Falls, Mass. established by Nathan Peabody Ames, Jr., 31, and his younger brother, James Tyler Ames, 24. The company would become the leading manufacturer of edged weapons engaged by the U.S. government in the nineteen century. Not only would they produce swords and sabers but cutlasses, knives and bayonets, as well as firearms and cannon. A cannon foundry would be established, two years later, on the Chicopee River a mile or so below the falls which in itself begot the town of Cabotsville. Cabotsville and Chicopee Falls later merged into the single community of Chicopee, Mass located near the federal armory at Springfield. His initial blacksmithery was apparently close enough for Ames to stamp "SPRINGFIELD" on the blades of his first foot artillery swords. Later swords would be stamped or etched with the addresses of "CABOTSVILLE" or "CHICOPEE".

thx - cpr

 

[dalee100]

Hi,

To help muddy the waters a bit.

Originally, issued muzzleloaders had bayonets issued with them. When rifled long-arms were beginning to be adopted by military's, (mostly as elite units), they weren't generally able to mount a bayonet. Due to the more difficult and slower loading procedure. A ready and reliable edged sidearm was needed. So short swords and "Rifleman's Knives" were issued for close quarters combat.

Of course, with the invention and adoption of the Minnie Ball and rifled muskets by army's in the early 1850's, every soldier could be a rifleman. And due to the simpler loading procedure, bayonets could be used. So there was no longer a need for rifleman's knives. And they went away.

dalee

 

[MarkPinTx]

Don't forget that bayonets were spikes and not edged weapons until the late 19th and early 20th century. The bayonet that would double as a knife appeared in WWI.

With all due respect a minie ball rifle was still a muzzle loader and impossible to load safely with bayonet mounted.

 

[dalee100]

Don't forget that bayonets were spikes and not edged weapons until the late 19th and early 20th century. The bayonet that would double as a knife appeared in WWI.

With all due respect a minie ball rifle was still a muzzle loader and impossible to load safely with bayonet mounted.

Hi,

At the risk of wandering off topic. The genius of the minne ball is the fact that it is a hollow base projectile that is slightly under bore size. It doesn't engage the rifling until the powder explosion upsets the thin hollow skirt into the rifling. This allows it to be easily loaded with or without the bayonet mounted. At least I never had any problems with my 1863 Colt or Remington Zouve. The earlier rifles needed a tight fitting bullet to seal. So some kind patching was commonly used. And they were more difficult to load.

And blade bayonets, while not as common as spikes, were used. From the 1841 "Mississippi Rifle" sword bayonet to the one for the 2 Band Enfield Musketoon to the 1863 Remington Zouve. I always admired the shape of the Mississippi bayonet. And these are just three examples I can recall off the top of my head.

Sunnyd, I forgot to say I really like your patch knife. Looks a lot nicer than the one I made for myself! How long it yours, if I may ask?

dalee

 

[MarkPinTx]

I'll defer to your practical experience dalee :foot:, but I think the majority of issued bayonets would not have subsituted well for a knife such as the Ames.

 

[yablanowitz]

My father pointed out to me many years ago that a bayonet, whether spike or blade, is intended to be a stabbing weapon rather than a cutting tool. The old bayonets I had reflected this, as they were tempered rather soft to avoid brittleness. It would seem reasonable to me for a rifleman to have a large, well-tempered knife both for close quarters battle and for general utility.

 

[dalee100]

... but I think the majority of issued bayonets would not have subsituted well for a knife such as the Ames.

Hi,

You won't get any disagreement me from there. They are pretty awkward to use for most knife type tasks.

Though some casual perusing of the interwebs for contemporary illustrations of equipment shows European Riflemen with short swords rather than knives. Though admittedly, most of the illustrations I've come across so far, have been British rather than Continental.

Makes me wonder why we seemed to prefer knives, like the Ames. Rather than something else.

dalee

 

[navihawk]

Welcome to the Forum..

I'm not 100% sure about your assumption here but it is plausible I reckon.

I love my hand-made custom traditional patch knife produced from a mill-saw sharpening file from "whitmore" 'J. Whit'

Anthony

Nice one Anthony. Makes me want to pound one out on a forge myself.:thumbup: