Ritter Mini Takes a Pounding...

[jemelby]

...And fails.

Man, I wanted this knife to be a winner. The action and feel of a Mini Grip with a great blade design. And S30V to boot. Everything was lined up for a jackpot!

The "pounding" that the knife took was cutting a small platic zip tie that was holding an electrical cord together. The knife was in out-of-the-box condition. I had not played with the edge at all. I had sliced a piece of apple earlier, but I am certain that was not what damaged the blade.

Almost immediatly after cutting the zip tie, my eyes were drawn to the blade edge. There were two narrow spinters of steel where the edge had given away. Imagine what your fingernail looks like when you accidentally tear it: That's what the blade chips looked like. They were only about 1/32-1/64th of an inch wide, but very noticable. Especially after inspection with the radioshack pocket magnifier.

I re-ground the edge with the edgepro, taking it past the root of the cracks. If it was a blade flaw, this hopefully halted it. I'd send it back, but I'm shipping out in a couple days, and would miss the return. Maybe once I am stablazed in country, and if the trouble presits, I'll persue it further.

Understand, everything else about the knife is great. Had it had a wire edge, I'd have expected this. I hope it works out.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

There have been a number of such problems with various S30V blades, many of them were solved with an extensive rehoning which removed the weakened metal on the edge, hopefully this is the case with your knife. Update this thread when you get a chance to use the knife some more.

-Cliff

 

[tim8557]

That's why I much prefer Cabela's Benchmade Mini-Grip because it is in D2 Steel. I find it practically indestructable

 

[knifetester]

Cutting a zip tie should not have damaged the knife in any way, especially not to that extent. Is it possible you were placing lateral presure on the edge during the cut?


Since Doug Ritter is a member here, and Benchmade has excellent customer support, I am sure they will make things right.

Crucible might also be interested in hearing about this steel failure. It is shocking to me the number of failures that are being reported on the forums of S30V blades. Given the HUGE promototion it had been given (Wear resistance of D2, tough as A2, corrosion resistant as 440C) this is nothing short of staggering.

Now I have used my S30V blades decently hard, much harder than cutting plastic ties, and there has been no unexpected problems. I have read of others using their S30V blades quite hard and no problems. Indeed, in my experience S30V acts just like ATS34 would at a similiar hardness.

It is my intiuition that the vast majority of failures are being seen on productions knives whereas I have not heard of custom knives failing.

Why is that? I can think of several possible explanations.
-The failures are not from steel flaws, but rather quality control in heat treat. Hopefully custom knives are given higher quality, smaller batch heat treats given their increased prices.

-There are simply more production knives out there, so it is natural that S30V failures would appear there.

-People may use production knives harder or more often than customs.
What really suprises me is that the S30V failures seem to be under fairly light use, I would not expect a $10 Swiss Army knife, and Opinel or a $3 gas station made in China POS to fail under the circumstances that I am reading reported for S30V failures.

I have not heard of a SINGLE failure of an S30V Strider blade. Given the manner in which these knives are promoted and often used (see numerous posts on the other forums) if the problem was the steel and not HT or QC, then it should have appeard in these folders and it has not.

In fact I don't recall reading about any BOS heat treated custom knives (not Buck productions) where there was a failure.

Thanks for reporting the damaged edge here, thank God it failed now, not when you were deployed and may have been depending on it seriously.

S30V was pushed hugely by the industry. What's next? Probably the CPM version of 154CM??? Is that the answer? Or would using traditional steels and higher quality heat treat and more exacting quality control be a better solution?

I can tell you this, a Case CV steel (50100B?) knife would not have failed in the vast number of uses that I have heard S30V failing in. Guess which is cheaper to buy and produce knives in?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cutting a zip tie should not have damaged the knife in any way, especially not to that extent. Is it possible you were placing lateral presure on the edge during the cut?

You should be able to cut the knife into the plastic and then twist the handle to break the plastic apart. I have done this in cutting through the bottom of pop bottles. I would not do it with one of the blades I have heavily customized, but any NIB production blade should easily do this without damage.

It is my intiuition that the vast majority of failures are being seen on productions knives whereas I have not heard of custom knives failing.

Safe queens vs users. When Talonite came out in in customs the performance hype was insane, it was promoted for everything from fillet knives to heavy choppers. There were no reports of any problems (outside of one crazy guy in canada who chops up rocks with microscopes).

When the knives started being used in the production field the problems came in steadily with the edge rolling, denting and in general failing much easier than decent steels when worked hard, and suffered from low edge retention in general due to rolling.

This isn't heat treated so it is the same material - why the huge difference in perspective? Mainly people use production knives a lot harder and are more willing to be critical than on customs which a lot of people see as a personal attack on the maker.

A lot of custom knives are being heat treating by Bos so there is no reason to expect performance to be any superior to Buck, steek wise.

In fact I don't recall reading about any BOS heat treated custom knives (not Buck productions) where there was a failure.

Problems have been reported in Reeves and Buck's S30V, Sodak for one. No problems have been reported in the Rat Trap's so far which will be interesting to watch as more get them are sold and they see more use.

-Cliff

 

[jemelby]

I piddled with the knife a fair amount since making the original post. I've done a variety of light cutting chores, and put the edge back under the scope. the edge seems to be behaving more like I've come to expect from it and my other S30V blades. That is to say that it's holding up quite well.

When I re-ground it, I put a more blunted angle on it by about 5-6°. Edge geometry is pretty subjective, so I couldn't really tell you what the resulting angle is. Needless to say, it doesn't have quite the same "slice-ability" as the NIB edge, but I believe it to be more durable.

Once I was comfortable that the blade would not shatter while cutting twine, I did a few twist stress tests on it (as hinted at by "knifetester"). I tried prying a couple small nails out of a pice of pine, and even used the front par tof the blade as a screwdriver. I didn't push any of the tests to the breaking point, but just checked the edge frequently as I went. I did roll and crack the edge a little on the nail prying test. I was able to dress it out quickly with the edgepro, though.

All in all, I believe the knife has recovered nicely. I know BM will alway take care of me, so no worries there. (shhh... don't tell 'em about the screws!)

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... I put a more blunted angle on it by about 5-6°.

I grind edges pretty thin and I still cut a lot of plastics, you should not have to thicken the edges for that work.

-Cliff

 

[Brian6244]

I cut zip-ties on a regular basis with my S30V Sebenza and the blade is flawless like the day I first opened the box. I have bought a lot of BM knvies with less than desirable edges for one reason or another. I wonder if thats (the factory sharpening job) the problem rather than the design or the blade or the type of steel.

 

[Ryan8]

I have bought a lot of BM knvies with less than desirable edges for one reason or another. I wonder if thats (the factory sharpening job) the problem rather than the design or the blade or the type of steel.

There was a report of the same problem with a Spyderco. It may still be a factory issue though.

 

[knifetester]

My impression is that the reported S30V failures have a common theme, Edge failure from NIB condition, then improved durabilty once sharpened.

There are different conclusions that can be reached, for example:
-S30V is temp sensitive, and is being overheated during the final sharpening process

and/or
- When people re-sharpen them they put a more durable profile on them, masking the problems with the steel.

Edge geometry is pretty subjective, so I couldn't really tell you what the resulting angle is.

I ahve a different perspective, which is that edge geomery is objective. It is capable of acertaining without regards to preferences or normative implications and is not prone to user variation, which is how I would loosely define subjective Simply put, it can be measured.

Re: Increased edge angle by 5-6 degrees:

Needless to say, it doesn't have quite the same "slice-ability" as the NIB edge, but I believe it to be more durable.

Yeah, that does not give strong confidence in the steel. Usually knife edges are more obtuse than needed from the factory. If an edge is failing from the factory (usually a 20 degree or so per side edge on BM) then either the steel and/or heat treat is bad or it was somehow damaged during production/ shipping.


Overall, given the MASSIVE promotion of S30V by the knife industry, I am just shocked at the number of failures that are reported. Again, it would not be acceptable for a cheap SAK, let alone a knife with a "premium" steel.

 

[Artfully Martial]

All this and more is why I went with the Cabela's D2 minigrip. No problmes yet!

Hope it all gets worked out though...I'm thinking about buying a Native (in S30V) soon.

 

[mete]

I have to assume that most of these problems are from improper grinding or improper heat treating.Grinding always produces heat and improper grinding produces much more heat and with the thin section of a knife edge it's easy to heat damage.Of course if you can stone off the original edge and no longer have a problem that proves the point.It's called quality control !!!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Grinding always produces heat and improper grinding produces much more heat and with the thin section of a knife edge it's easy to heat damage.

Most of the knives being reported don't actually have edges that thin that this is an issue really. It is difficult to high speed grind really thin edge, ~0.010" at low angles, ~5 degrees, as you have to go feather light on a platen, and cool completely after each pass as there is no metal there to actual serve as a heat sink. However on ~0.020" factory knives with ~15 degree bevels you can rip edges with no concern. There is certainly no room to make an arguement that this should be more difficult with S30V.

My impression is that the reported S30V failures have a common theme, Edge failure from NIB condition, then improved durabilty once sharpened.

Some are improving, some are not.

When people re-sharpen them they put a more durable profile on them, masking the problems with the steel.

Some are thinning them out though.

Overall, given the MASSIVE promotion of S30V by the knife industry, I am just shocked at the number of failures that are reported.

So am I, I never expected it to live up to the hype, but the failures described are way beyond that.

-Cliff

 

[Zerileous]

It seems to me that it is fairly common for factory edges to be weak.
My paramil has taken on zip ties and wire fine. My SE native has taken on tree branches (<1"). No real problems with either.
My calypso Jr, in vg10, however chipped out cutting a pop can, then rolled on a wire. Now, the calypso jr can handle quite a bit and is ground under the factory 30*.

I dont have a clue WHY this is happening but it seems like every instance of this sort of edge weakness is cured by sharpening up the blade some.

 

[Artfully Martial]

The only decent steel that I've ever had chip under moderate use is AUS8. Now, it took about a year and a half of use without sharpening and it had seen a lot more than one zip tie (a lot more).

 

[UnixDork]

My S30V knives fear no zip tie. This zip tie is about 1/8" thick, and I cut it just now with no problems. I stood it up on edge and twisted the edge in it until it dug a notch in the zip tie and there was no chipping, rolling, or any problem with the edge. A quick chop severed the zip tie. You can see in the picture I curled up a few shavings from the edge of it, too. It's still hair poppin sharp.



I'm not trying to refute the fact that people have had problems with S30V blades, but my experience with it has been nothing but great. The knife in the picture is a Gene Ingram custom. It has a 3/16" thick S30V blade with about a 15 degree edge, I believe from just eyeballing it. It has the same edge that it came with from Gene. I've stropped it on a leather strop a bit but that's it.

 

[knifetester]

Unix,

I really like that knife, Gene Ingram makes a great knife at a very reasonable price. His sheaths are kick butt too.

I would trust Gene to nail the HT on S30V, his attention to detail is very high. His edges are also very thin, high performance edges. Excellent knifemaker and a gentleman by all accounts.

On the subject of zip ties, I have cut about a zillion of them in the last decade. I did a quick check with an S30V blade this morning before I headed out to work. I took some zip ties and cut them. Complicated stuff. I used a couple knives for comparison, cheap ones.

Knives selected were a BM 635 Mini-Skirmish, a Victorinox Recruit and a Schrade 1095 small stockman.

The knives were all sharpened on a Spyderco Sharpmaker at 15 degrees, fine ceramic finish. The Skirmish edge is ~.020-.023" thick, the Schrade is ~.012-.014", and the Recruit had a flat relief grind at ~10 degrees a few years back, but is starting to thicken a bit now, it is ~.012-.015". All measurements with my cheap micrometer.

Anyways, I made 50 cuts through zip ties with each knife. I started with the ties looped and did a pull cut near the latch. Then I set them on a wood block and cut the tie into pieces using push cuts. I used the scrap of lumber as a block so that my wife did not castrate me with the spey blade of the stockman for scratching her table.

I did not try to use the same pressure, angle or anything for each cut as would be needed for a scientific test. Quite the contrary, I varied it all around with each knife, because that's what happens in real life. I cut at all sorts of angles, cut through the latches which are much thicker than the ties, stopped mid way through latches cuts and gave the blade a wiggle with the edge imbedded in the plastic. I cut from the sides of the ties, I cut them flat. I tried not to cut myself.

None of the knives were significantly dulled, none were damaged in any way.

So, what did conclusions can I draw from this quick and dirty check of performance? Simply that if I start fooling around with knives in the morning I will probably spill coffee on my shirt and be late for work.

 

[PC356]

Well, strangely enough right after reading this thread I left my office to go see what was going on in the plant yesterday and one of our new pallet jacks had just arrived. I just happen to have my mini-Ritter on me as I rotate out my EDC's a lot. The jack was secured to a pallet with some of those giant half inch wide zip ties so I figured what the hell. There were four of them holding the jack to the pallet and they all cut like butter after getting the blade to bite into the plastic with a firm pull cut. I closely inspected the S30V edge with no ill effects seen at all. It is still shaving sharp the entire length of the blade, all I have ever done is touch it up on my Sharpmaker's ceramic stones. Just wanted to give a little reassurance to those that had any doubt about this knife. I love mine.

 

[Lavan]

Was the infamous subject ziptie being cut with a PULL cut or like I usually do with just a twist and a pop?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I did not try to use the same pressure, angle or anything for each cut as would be needed for a scientific test.

This would only be needed if you were trying to study the performance at those specific conditions, it would not be a scientific investigation of ziptie cutting by a person for the reasons you noted.

What you would want to be careful of is to do enough cutting to prevent small shot contamination. So if one knife took more damage, before concluding this was significant you would repeat and see if it happened consistently.

Anyway, they are just plastic, I cut through a half a dozen last night with a 1095 blade at 66 HRC, with an edge angle of ~5 degrees per side on a full height hollow grind. I just snap pull cut the ties and then whitted them down to chips.

No visible effect on the blade. If you actually have to try to control the cutting to prevent damage then there is something seriously wrong with the steel.

-Cliff