Rivets instead of screws?

S

Savman

Joined
Jan 18, 1999
Messages
323
Sal,
Another question I've been meaning to ask you (and someone else also asked the same), is why you choose to use rivets instead of screws to hold some knife models together with. On my Wegner full-size, which is liner-locked, it has rivets in it except for the pivot screw (obviously for adjustment reasons). Most liner-locked knives have an all-screw construction, so why don't you do that with the Wegner model? I like having the option of being able to take my knife apart to clean it or whatever. Naturally, the rivets keep that option from happening! On the Military, it is all-screw construction. Why the inconsistency?

 
Savman - The advantage of screws is that you can take it apart (parts often sent to us in a "baggie" with a "please put back together", that's why we don't like "you" taking it apart). Another advantage to screws is that WE can take it apart (replace a part if necessary). This we mostly do in our Golden Factory). The disadvantage to screws is that they move. Sometimes parts loosen and rigidity becmes questionable. Critical in a linerlock for sure.

An advantage of rivets is that they do not move (at least ours don't). The knive remains rigid. Rivets are less expensive (putting screws in the Wegner might bring the price over the thresh-hold for the majority of our ELU).

Our Seki makers are exceptional at rigid construction when using rivets. We are just now working with them on screwing parts together. Not everyone wants screws or wants to pay for them. These are some of the majors. The best solution for the problem may not always be the same solution. Hope this helps.
sal
 
Sal,
Thanks again for the info. I think I'd have to agree that for the average Joe, rivet construction might be the ideal method, since there is little chance that the knife may come apart. But, for the rest of us do-it-yourselfer's, I'm sure all-screw construction wins hand-down. There is the expense addition to be concerned about, too. But, I'll pay the extra to have it my way! Maybe your company could take the Burger King approach to knives...fries or onion rings with your value meal, your choice! You could have some limited-run knives on hand that are all-screw construction so that someone could get a model they desired with the options they want. You couldn't really do that on a large scale, probably. But, you could have a parts bin with various parts ready to be assembled into a semi-custom knife. Just offer it through the factory, to keep the prices down. People could call your Golden facility with VISA handy and say, "make my Wegner with all screw construction, a black-t/satin/or bead blasted blade finish, a coordinating colored pocket clip/screw set and a large Coke! Oh yea, and I'd like a Moran with a black-t finish and an Edgeworks sheath, too." Maybe this could be an avenue for Spyderco to take as an added offering to their customers?? I would love to see that, as you can only do that with custom makers now, with a serious price premium. With the customized Spyderco service, people could get the knife that they want for a little more than the normal production version and it would still be much cheaper than going to a custom. Whatcha think?
 
Sal, I will have to concur with SAVMAN comments on a custom shop. From my readings on your company from different magazines and forums, I have taken note on your willness to try new proactive(not reactive)ideas. Plus there is discipline in your approach in developing ideas for your products. My observations at gun,art,car,antique shows are people are willing spend alot of money for something different/unique or high quality. You proved that with your company partnership with Custom Collaborations. Berreta, Colt, Remington, Winchester, Harley Davidson have custom shops why not Spyderco? I say give the people what they want. Sal, thanks for your insights, they are invaluable!
 
Sal,
Endre's mention of how many hobbies have customized products available through the OEM factories is very true. There are many companies/businesses that exist on the basis of customizing normal production products so that the true enthusiasts of that hobby can have the individuality and performance that they desire. With Spyderco's extensive R&D capabilities and high quality standards, a "Spyderco Custom Shop" would only enhance the company's image and would keep knife enthusiasts very happy! We could have high-quality Spyderco knives that were tailored to our needs. It would also keep the competition on their toes!
 
Great ideas guys! I'm also one of those people that really likes to take my knives apart to clean, lubricate, polish, whatever. For what it's worth, I just bought a couple of Benchmades just b/c they had this feature. I know, it voids the warranty ... One of the things that I like about the Sebenza's is that Chris doesn't mind if you take it apart!

The Spyderco Custom Shop is also a very good idea. Having a single, in-house shop that sells certain knives at a slightly higher price avoids alot of problems of limited production/quasi-custom knives. I would DEFINITELY be willing to pay more to "have it my way". Also, I think that alot of us would be buying more than just one of these limited prodction knives.

Bernie

 
A custom shop is a cool idea, even a set of protocols where a plain edge or a 50/50 could be included in a batch, and then specially sent to a customer, at full retail or a little more.

As to screws, do you think we could see screws at the pivot at least, that way if we want to after factory stuff we can????

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Certainly some intersting concepts. It is quite difficult to run both a production and custom shop using the same machinery. The synthesis of being a custom maker and a facory maker has only been achieved so far in the smaller facilities, eg; Chris Reeve, Gary Randall.

Perhaps a custom maker could be connected to the factory for these choices? I'll bring it up in R & D. Owen Wood will be joining our R & D staff in April. I'm sure he could help us in the development of a custom Shop. Perhaps if as you mentioned a parts bin of "univerasal parts" that could be adapted to standard models?
sal
 
All right Sal! Whoo hoo! We'd love to see it, the "Spyderco Custom Shop!" I hope that your company can produce such an awesome outlet for dedicated knife nuts! I'll be there to support the C.S.
 
So you want a Mod.29 but, you want it in round butt with a 3" Bbl. S&W would make a thousand for a distributor.Perhaps that would be viable.

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S&W does indeed make "exclusives" for certain distributors, especially RSR Wholesale and Lew Horton Distributing. S&W even goes a step further by selling the majority of their "S&W Performance Center" customized products to Lew Horton, although other distributors do get a TINY bit of them. Alot of other firearm companies have in-house custom shops that build distinct custom models or will customize a customer's gun of the same name. Also for firearms, there are tons of small and large companies that make their living by customizing or offering accessories for production guns. The same doesn't exist in the cutlery industry, at least not that I've found. So, to get a customized cutlery product, you have an independent custom maker make a knife to your specs, or be satisfied with the production knife you've purchased, since there are no sources that customize production knives. Or, you can do what I do and many others, customize yourself. In the suggestion to Sal about the in-house Spyderco Custom Shop, it wouldn't be a true built-to-the-customer's-specs "custom knife" offering, as that would not be cost-efficient, I wouldn't think. Instead, there would be many variations of parts built for a few knife models to start. Maybe just to test the water, so to speak. It would work like this. Let's produce a military custom run first. We'll produce a small parts bin of ATS-34 blades, VG-10 blades, and CPM440V blades to start. With that batch of blades we'll offer some with a satin finish, some with a bead-blasted finish, and some with a black-t or similar finish. We'll also produce pocket clip and screw sets that'll match the blade's finishes. Now we'll produce a run of aluminum handles that are anodized black with Kraton inserts. Then we'll produce a run of G-10 handles that have two full liners inside. Now, a run of carbon-fiber handles. We'll have to have some assembly screw sets of varying colors depending on the customer's blade color choice, etc. Finally, you have a parts bin of interchangeable, ready-to-assemble parts that would be standing by to fulfill the dreams of enthusiastic knife hobbyists worldwide by giving them a knife that is semi-custom, but made of limited-production factory parts. I'm not Caravaggio, but did I paint a clear picture for you? It seems obvious to me.
 
Spyderco is expecting To add an "in house" custom knife maker to our Spyderco team. Owen Wood is expected to arrive in April. If such a Custom Shop" is feasible, it would have to be Owen handling the shop. There are a number of ways to handle such a shop, something to discuss with Owen.
sal
 
Sal,
My last reply was for someone whom I thought didn't understand what I meant by a custom shop, not you! No offense was intended to anyone, nontheless. Just wanted to clarify. Please keep us posted as to what your plans may be with the custom shop concept, as maybe Mr. Owen Wood can help make it reality!
 
I wonder, could this custom shop really make a profit on its own. Or would the production line have to support it.
I for one would not like to see a increase in price of the production line for, limited custom options, on a knife or two.

[This message has been edited by db (edited 12 February 1999).]
 
I have to voice my opinion on the subject of rivets. I do not like them. For a rivet to work it has to be malleable (soft) so the ends of it can be upset (squished into a mushroom shape) and hold in place. After whacking the sping of my GF's Goddard lightWeight, I noticed some disruption of the rivet that holds the toggle lock. I was not hard on the knife, but the rivet appeared to have bent slightly, the heads were no longer flat on the surface of the handle. My results and text describing the following surgery on the knife are in the general forum under "Lockback failures", so I will not repeat them here.

YeK

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Yek - It takes more force to disrupt (bend) a rivet than it does to disrupt a screw of the same diameter. Especially with the pins we use. It takes at least 100 inch/lbs of force to bend a pin. Perhaps your "test" is more than a test.
sal
 
Sal,

In no way did I intend to damage the knife I had purchased for my girlfriend. What I did was whack the spine in the same manner as I had whacked all of my other knives. After whacking, there was blade play, and a noticable disruption (appeared to be cocked at an angle in the hole) of the head of that holds the toggle lock. It did not seem right, and though I admit that my final test of clamping down the knife and forcing it to fail was not scientific, it did prove to me that the rivet used to pin the lock was not suitable in strength.

I did not replace it with a screw, I used a pin fashioned from an old dremel bit. The Dremel bit material was much more durable, and resisted my attempts at cutting it with my side cutters. The rivet is only 2mm in dia., the replacement pin I used is an 1/8" (I do not know off hand what that is in mm, but it looks roughly 3mm or so).

After removal, I examined the old rivet, and found that it was sheared across about a quarter of its diameter. I used my leatherman to get a rough idea as to the relative softness of the material. It is softer than the material I used to replace it. It is (roughly) as soft as a 1/8" dia. fine thread screw, the kind used in the manufacture of electronics equipment. I had originally considered a screw to replace the rivet, but none that I had on hand were any tougher than the original rivet. I got the idea to use a pin from the construction of my Ascent. It uses a 1/8" pin similar to what I had fashioned.

I lost one end of the original rivet, it had to be cut off so the rivet could be removed, so I do not know whether or not both ends of the rivet were upset to hold it into place. If only friction holds into place, it would be suggestable to use a harder material, even if it is the same diameter. Being that the pin that holds the toggle lock is what endures almost all of the force from cutting, or getting whacked on the spine, I am sure that your already fine line of Zytel knives could benefit from this slight upgrade.

YeK



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"No, it's a Vaquero Grande in my pocket, but I am happy to see you!"
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YeK - Thanx for the reply. Love talking to people that not only know, they do! Let me share some more thoughts.

Our euipment breaks things. Some of the (sick) guys in our crew like doing that sort of thing. We record how and what breaks. Heck, we can break a Busse in 4 seconds. Everything breaks!

We recognize that a folding knife will never be as strong as a FB. The goal in a folder (for us) is "Do not cut our ELU through a design or manufacturing flaw. This would literally be "Cutting the hand that feeds you". The fact that the knife failed, before the lock defeated is exactly what it is supposed to do.

When we do a break series on a new model we assemble and break. What break caused the failure? Oh, it was the Pivot pin, it bent slighly allowing enough play to permit the lock to slip out of the socket. Improve the Pivot pin. repeat, OK what broke, it was not a break, it was the hardened lock pivot slipping out of the holes in the handle. Need to cap the pin better, or use a round over rivet. repeat. OK what broke, the plastic in the handle between the two pivots, strengthen or redesign. repeat...repeat...repeat. I think you get the point.

We keep slowly improving everything! always! The comments we receive here are great. Maybe you have discovered the next improvement? or maybe the lock will defeat before the knife breaks (Oh, oh!).

At Spyderco we are always refining and evolving. Living is or should be the same. Live & Learn? I really appreciate the hard core honest opinion. I can take it in and use it. I can share thoughts that might broaden your view. It has more than once cost me sleep. All in all, it's a good thing.
Keep doing, YeK! The "Doers" move humans in time.
sal
 
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