RMJ Talon vs. ATC Next Generation ranger...

[Warriorsociologist]

Some may say that these hawks are in 'different categories'... As far as I am concerened, I am having a bit of difficulty choosing which one to buy in prep for getting activated / and for use as a wilderness tool after I get back. What are your opinions as to the combat, survival, and general utility uses of these two high-end hawks. What about as 'throwers?'

Let the debate begin!

 

[hot animal machine]

Hey Riggor,Dean here,I don't own the Talon or the next gen Ranger hawk,but I do have ATC's Tac Nam hawk and the original Ranger spike hawk.I think ATC is a great company and I have also heard alot praise for RMJ,I dont think you can go wrong with ether one.So what I can tell you is this,I really like the Ranger ,it's a great all around Hawk.I also like the Nam hawk,but what I really like is the Acetal handle its checkerd so the grip is positive and from what Andy says is its a very tough materal,so it won't break or loosen on you.So I guess what I'm trying say is,I lean towards the next gen Ranger hawkthe combination of the Ranger style head and the acetal handle is hard to beat.One other thing, you might want to look at ATC's shoulder holster as a way to carry it,it will keep it out of the way but still acsessable.hope this helps,
Semper Fi bro,
Dean

 

[Two Hawks]

Both are accepted high-quality makers. You won't get junk from either company. Thus you have to look at design of the two hawks.

HANDLE: ATC's new hawk has a ballistic-material handle which should stand up to most anything you can throw at it. RMJ's Eagle Talon has an integral handle of the same 1075 high-carbon steel as the head ... there is NO WAY it will break.

HEAD: Not familiar with ATC's material and heat treat, but have seen some good reviews on field use cutting ability and edge retention of their other hawks. RMJ's 1075 alloy is a time-proven axe and knife steel very like the best of those used over the last 150 years for weapons, and I would trust Ryan Johnson's heat treat on it under any circumstances. While I would want higher carbon for a knife blade, this is an excellent choice for an axe.

GEOMETRY: RMJ's spike is a smooth follows-the-stroke design which will also retract readily from the hole in the skull. ATC's spike is an arrowhead design which is likely to hang up after penetration and will provide more resistance going in. I don't do spikes, but on the basis of engineering the RMJ hawk wins big-time on this one.

CUTTING EDGE: Either hawk provides a working cutting edge which should be adequate for cutting shelter materials, firewood, or portions of unpleasant people. The RMJ hawk has a very nasty little under-grind which makes hooking cuts against bad folks a reality. Neither hawk has a razor-sharp upper cutting edge for thrust cuts in a fight, but should still work well in CQB applications.

WHICH WINS???? Get your hands on one of each and see how it feels to you. There is no substitute for "comfort" with a weapon, and I have no idea which martial-arts discipline has formed your instinctive handling of an edged tool. You will not get junk with either manufacturer. Based on engineering, my own preference is for the RMJ Eagle Talon.

TWO HAWKS
http://www.2hawks.net

 

[kj4dx]

I can only give a one-sided perspective, but I will be as subjective as I can. My 2nd-gen ATC Ranger tomahawk is made of O1 tool steel with a factory-ground sharpened hooking edge, and an additional factory-added O1 steel pin securing the head to the handle, to cure this tomahawk's habit of losing its head (the TOMAHAWK, not the owner !). I like the O1 steel, because that is what Randall makes their legendary combat blades from. This has served them well in the world's worst places since my father's day.

However, with all that said, I am still impressed with the Talon's one-piece design. It's got a really beautiful head design too, and I agree with the above contributer that it follows a more natural swing path. Nothing a bit wrong with the choice of steel, either. Tried and true. Easy to sharpen in the field. I do not like the narrow, thin handle. It seems to me that it would pinch or bind in the palm with heavy use, causing blisters which I don't like to have when I'm out there downrange somewhere with limited kit.

That's my 2-cents.

 

[J.Davey]

Honestly, I've owned neither, but I suggest looking into a K5 Tactical spike hawk. At least you might get it. I know from reading these forums that ATC (while high quality) can take months to get and can be a bit pricey. It took a year for RMJ to get back to me about a hawk. By that time, Justin Gingrich (Ranger Knives) and I had worked on a design that was everything I wanted, and would still cost me less than one from RMJ! (by the way, Justin, if you see this I'm still wanting to have that hawk made, I have some new ideas on the steel, and some money might be flowing in soon, so if you don't hear from me by the time you read this, please get in touch!:thumbup: )

 

[JWBirch]

If you can somehow get your hands on an RMJ Talon I'd highly recommend buying it, regardless of cost. Or a Kestrel if you plan on carrying it on your person. The Talon is simply the standard by which other tactical hawks are measured, for reasons given above by Two Hawks. But if you're ordering one now, give the company a call, so you know what to expect. You may wait a year, or they may send you one next week, but finding out where you are on the priority list will help you make your decision and prevent frustration later.

ATC has historically been a decent quality product, and O-1 in the mid 50s RC should hold up well. They are fine light-infantry carry hawks although some people have complained that the handles will loosen up with heavy/extreme use. That should be expected though (metal v. wood or plastic), and if you expect more infantry type duty than crash/rescue duty it may be a good choice.

If you are comparing RMJ and ATC, you will also do well to check out K-5 Tactical. The current K-5 spike hawk may be a bit heavy for light infantry day-to-day carry, but is as good as it gets for a crash/tactical hawk, and the sheath is bombproof. Look for the next K-5 run to be lighter, and if you can get ahold of Eddie and explain your situation he may just get one out to you before he introduces them at SHOT. He's notorious for being a great guy, with excellent cusomer service, great communication, and a well priced high quality extreme use tool. Way to lead by example, Eddie!

Also take a look at Ranger Knives RD hawk. They aren't up on the web site, but are available for delivery. You may find pics if you search here, but definitely at knifeforums.com. At 12" they may not be big enough for crash axe duty, but are excellent for infantry/sniper/scout type work. A lot better than the Kershaw camp hatchet I carried for several months in Afghanistan anyway, and more than three times less money than an RMJ Kestrel in the 12" size category. Just don't expect it to pry doors open like a Kestrel. On a personal note, as a contractor on an all-elite PSD team in Iraq Justin has proven himself in combat, with guns as well as welding torches(he supervised and built our armored Suburban), and has watched my back and my teams back for hundreds of combat miles. I support him anytime I need custom combat tools. And his products have proven themselves as we tested the hawk he made for me by cutting through a c-pillar of a car in baghdad, with very little effect to the edge. His own hawk, pictured on his website, held up as well, and didn't take any edge damage until we started hacking concrete curbs with it.

Best wishes,
JB

What I carried and will carry:
Kershaw camp hatchet carried on LBE/assault pack in Afghanistan (I wasn't a BF member back then...)
Ranger Knives custom S-7 Axe in the truck and Busse Battle Mistress in my assault pack in Iraq
RK standard entry tool in my car right now
RK RD Hawk on my assault pack right now
K-5 SpikeHawk in my truck right now
RMJ Talon sitin in the back room, 'cause it's the most fun to play with