Rookie - finish to keep rust off handle.

Joined
Oct 19, 2024
Messages
11
I've taken several knife-making classes in the past and have started a home forge over the past few months.
I've been practicing, experimenting and playing quite a bit.
I got one blade nearly finished about a week ago. It's (maybe) a cheese knife. It's kin to what I see called a blacksmith knife. Handle and blade all a single piece of steel, no scales for handle.
It's 1084. Heat treated. Bevels ground in.
It needs to have some fine sanding on the blade and needs to be sharpened on a stone.
When I went back down in my basement to do this several days after my work on it there was lots of rust on the handle, especially where the twist is.
I wanted the handle rough/unfinished. I wasn't expecting this much rust this quickly.
Can somebody explain why I got that much rust that fast?
And what I should do about it? Or what I should have done about it to keep it from happening?
Is there something that I should be finishing it with to keep the rust away that is food safe?
Many thanks.
 
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Welcome Julian.
Fill out your profile so we know a bit about you and where you live. It helps us give better answers.
Posting a photo also helps a lot.

What you describe is called "flash rust". It is caused by small particles of the sanded metal dust on the surface reacting with the water used in sanding as well as the moisture in the air in the shop. Basements are notably damp. When sanding to the lower grits the surface has lots of microscopic pores and grooves that catch the metal swarf. This fine metal dust combines with the humidity and rusts quickly.

To prevent or slow it down, first try wiping off the blade when you are done sanding for the day. If the shop is in a damp place, oil the blade when done for day.
To remove it, a light rubbing with steel wool and oiling the blade usually is all you need to do. Sanding to at least 400 grit helps prevent it from being as much of an issue.
Your blacksmith handle is another concern. It is rough surfaced and probably has scale and/or decarb on its surface. The rough surface traps some of the swarf. Not too much you can do about that but keep the knife dry and oiled. Brushing it down with a wire brush may help. Since it is a food use knife use a food safe oil like vegetable oil or food grade mineral oil.
 
Welcome Julian.
Fill out your profile so we know a bit about you and where you live. It helps us give better answers.
Posting a photo also helps a lot.

What you describe is called "flash rust". It is caused by small particles of the sanded metal dust on the surface reacting with the water used in sanding as well as the moisture in the air in the shop. Basements are notably damp. When sanding to the lower grits the surface has lots of microscopic pores and grooves that catch the metal swarf. This fine metal dust combines with the humidity and rusts quickly.

To prevent or slow it down, first try wiping off the blade when you are done sanding for the day. If the shop is in a damp place, oil the blade when done for day.
To remove it, a light rubbing with steel wool and oiling the blade usually is all you need to do. Sanding to at least 400 grit helps prevent it from being as much of an issue.
Your blacksmith handle is another concern. It is rough surfaced and probably has scale and/or decarb on its surface. The rough surface traps some of the swarf. Not too much you can do about that but keep the knife dry and oiled. Brushing it down with a wire brush may help. Since it is a food use knife use a food safe oil like vegetable oil or food grade mineral oil.
Thanks for the response Stacy.

I had a photo ready to go from my local machine but there seems to be no way to attach. I have to use a hosting site to do this? I'll try to figure that out.

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet this morning, but can't see where/how to fill out my profile.

What you say makes sense.
Except here's some more data.
I heat treated three knives and took them to the basement to finish.
They were forged many weeks/months ago. They've been in relatively humid conditions since forging. No rust visible. Significant forge scale.
Swarf may explain the rust on the finished knife.
But one of the unfinished knives that's with the others has not been touched by the grinder.
It is rusted too. But it is rusted ONLY to the quench line. (I didn't quench the majority of the handle.)

Does forge scale keep rust at bay?
In other words, did the quenched part have the forge scale blown off and so now there's an easier place for rust to form?
 
Yes, forge scale is a covering of iron oxide over the steel. It keeps the oxygen and moisture away from reacting. It is why "blacksmith" black tools don't rust as bad. In a knife it isn't a good thing, though.

You have to use a hosting site unless you have a paid membership.
Your profile is available by clicking your name in the top right browser bar and then clicking account details. Make the changes and additions and click save.
 
Yes, forge scale is a covering of iron oxide over the steel. It keeps the oxygen and moisture away from reacting. It is why "blacksmith" black tools don't rust as bad. In a knife it isn't a good thing, though.

You have to use a hosting site unless you have a paid membership.
Your profile is available by clicking your name in the top right browser bar and then clicking account details. Make the changes and additions and click save.
I'm really not that computer illiterate, but when I click on Insert Image and put in a link, it says that it can't upload. I have tried from Flickr and Amazon. Any idea what I am doing wrong?

Here is a link to an image of the almost finished knife I posted about:
 
I guess when I put the link in as a link it works... Odd that the image icon won't do it...
 
Not sure if This idea would work, maybe Stacy can confirm?

Years ago I was modding a Becker of mine, lots of guys patina with mustard and vinegar, etc....

I tried Rust Blueing.
I've only done it that one time, but I imagine with the rustic look blacksmithed knives with raw handles, that technique would help?

Boiling the knife handle in water turned the rust darker and protected the knife more, making it hold oil better.

*edit
I'm not describing it well, but it gives you something to research...Rust Blueing
 
My next suggestion is about protecting the blade from rusting.
The traditional way is having an oxide on the blade. It can be as simple as heat bluing, but a chemical etch is better. What knifemakers use to etch and patina blades is Ferric Chloride, AKA - FC. You soak the blade in it from as short as a minute to as long as 30 minutes. Longer than 5-minute soaks are usually done in 5-minute segments with a rinse off between soaks. There are many past threads in Shop Talk on mixing and using FC. Use the Custom Search Engine in the Stickys to find them and many other subjects.

Ways to protect your knife from rust:
A good brushing with a steel wire brush will help a lot. Blacksmiths often follow with a brass brush or wheel to give it a slight brassy glow.
You can quit here and oil the blade or add more protection as follows:
Option 1) A soak in FC will then darken and help protect the knife from light rust. It will still be necessary to clean, dry. and oil it after use and every so often when stored.
Option 2) You could apply a blacksmith finish of beeswax/turpentine/linseed oil (4:2:1 ratio). It creates a black shiny surface that resists rust. You can look up how to do that on most any blacksmith site or search. Be aware that this needs to be done outside and safely as the mixture creates a lot of smoke and occasionally flames. The mixture needs to be stored securely in a new 1-gallon paint can (buy them online or at a hardware store)
Option 3) Apply a heat blue. Sand the blade as much as you plan on. Wire brush it free of any rust or scale. Hold the knife in tongs by the blade and heat only the handle with a torch, playing the flame up and down the handle until it starts turning blue (somewhere around 500-600°F). Just as it reaches a peacock blue remove the heat and dunk in some oil (since it is a food knife, veggie oil or mineral oil is best). Let it cool, set it aside overnight to allow the oil to penetrate, then wipe excess oil off. It now has an oiled surface patina the looks good and somewhat helps prevent rust.

Final note - no basic procedure will stop rust if the knife is not kept Clean, Dry, and Oiled. With these three simple steps carbon blades can remain in use over 100 years with no rust.
 
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My next suggestion is about protecting the blade from rusting.
The traditional way is having an oxide on the blade. It can be as simple as heat bluing, but a chemical etch is better. What knifemakers use to etch and patina blades is Ferric Chloride, AKA - FC. You soak the blade in it from as short as a minute to as long as 30 minutes. Longer than 5-minute soaks are usually done in 5-minute segments with a rinse off between soaks. There are many past threads in Shop Talk on mixing and using FC. Use the Custom Search Engine in the Stickys to find them and many other subjects.

Ways to protect your knife from rust:
A good brushing with a steel wire brush will help a lot. Blacksmiths often follow with a brass brush or wheel to give it a slight brassy glow.
You can quit here and oil the blade or add more protection as follows:
Option 1) A soak in FC will then darken and help protect the knife from light rust. It will still be necessary to clean, dry. and oil it after use and every so often when stored.
Option 2) You could apply a blacksmith finish of beeswax/turpentine/linseed oil (4:2:1 ratio). It creates a black shiny surface that resists rust. You can look up how to do that on most any blacksmith site or search. Be aware that this needs to be done outside and safely as the mixture creates a lot of smoke and occasionally flames. The mixture needs to be stored securely in a new 1-gallon paint can (buy them online or at a hardware store)
Option 3) Apply a heat blue. Sand the blade as much as you plan on. Wire brush it free of any rust or scale. Hold the knife in tongs by the blade and heat only the handle with a torch, playing the flame up and down the handle until it starts turning blue (somewhere around 500-600°F). Just as it reaches a peacock blue remove the heat and dunk in some oil (since it is a food knife, veggie oil or mineral oil is best). Let cool off and wipe excess oil off. It now has an oiled surface patina the looks good and somewhat helps prevent rust.

Final note - no basic procedure will stop rust if the knife is not kept Clean, Dry, and Oiled. With these three simple steps carbon blades can remain in use over 100 years with no rust.
That's super helpful Stacy. Thanks.

I'll read about FC and learn more about oiling blades.

Your descriptions of both the blacksmith finish and the heat blue have me thinking about seasoning cast iron skillets and polymerization. Is that essentially what these two processes are doing?

Thanks again.
 
A Blacksmith finish is probably a polymerization of some kind. Basically, you are leaving a burned residue on the surface. The wax and oil first penetrate the pores and crevices in the steel and the residue and oxides plug them to keep out water molecules.
Heat bluing is just an oxide color formed by heating the steel. In the days before temperature-controlled ovens and readouts, tempering was done by color.

Using a beeswax and oil finish requires heating the metal to 400°F for about 20 minutes (mainly to completely dry them) and then coating it with the wax/oil compound. Once coated, it is placed back in the oven to heat for about another 30 minutes. (Some folks drop the temp to 350° for the second soak.)

You want to use an old toaster oven for this and do it outside ... it makes a fair bit of smoke. This oven will be OK for other tempering but won't be good for food ever again:cool:
As with all potentially flammable treatments, having a fire blanket and extinguisher handy is the norm for safety. Fire blankets are so cheap and easy to use I don't know why more people don't know about them or have them. They run about $5 each in 4-packs (the cheaper generic ones are the same as the name brand ones as far as I can tell). They are reusable, too. The Amazon has a $49 ten pack with 10 pair of fireproof gloves. I give them to everyone for Christmas.

There are two methods of applying a blacksmith finish - oven and forge/torch

The oven method
is by far the most accurate and best practice. It gives good results if the metal was properly wire brushed, cleaned, dried, and not touched with fingers or things that have oil/dirt on them until done. Pickling in Ph-down prior to the treatment is a good idea before doing any type of finish like these. It removes all scale and leaves a well cleaned surface once scrubbed with soap and hot water after the pickle. Dry it well and place immediately in the oven to finish drying. Once the second heat is done, wipe the object down with a cotton cloth. Finishing immediately with a brass brush leaves a nice-looking surface.

The torch or forge heating method is less accurate temperature wise and usually gets the metal too hot and the wax mixture catches fire. Obviously, the long hold times don't work here. You just get it hot enough to fully coat with the melted mixture and then reheat to let the mixture carbonize (AKA-burn). This works fine for most shop tools and decorative blacksmith items, but isn't the best on a knife that needs to cut things. Just be aware that the smoke will ignite rather spectacularly sometimes. The container needs a fitted metal lid to close it off if it ignites, too.
Many of the old timers heated the object in the forge and tested with a drip of beeswax. When it was hot enough to smoke quickly, they would plunge the object in the can/tub of wax/oil mix or brush it on with a stiff brush and then stick back in the forge for a few seconds to heat the wax and catch it on fire. They let the wax/oil burn off, quickly rubbed it down with a piece of cotton cloth, and then brushed the surface while still hot with a brass brush.

These methods leave a pretty nice finish once you get the hang of it. It does require working outside, wearing hot gloves, and the fire safety mentioned above.

Since you are new to smithing, I'll explain "pickling". Pickle is just a term for a mild acid solution that will dissolve the fire scale and some oxides that form in the heat of forging. It leaves a nice even surface for the next steps of sanding and grinding. The standard mixture is one cup of Ph-Down (sodium bisulphate) per gallon of water. Most folks make up a five-gallon drywall bucket of it and keep it covered when not in use. It will last for years of normal pickling steel. By weight, three cups equal a pound of Ph-Down. 2 pounds of Ph-Down in five gallons of water is close enough. 2 pounds runs about $5 at the hardware store or pool supply (or Amazon).
After pickling, wash well in running water, dry off, and proceed with whatever your next step for the knife or forging is.
 
Thanks Stacy for the detailed and informative response! I'm trying to process it, look some things up that it touched and be thoughtful in my learning rather than just firing things back.

I have two questions.

One is about what you wrote and the heat treat that is already on the knife. Putting the heat treated knife in the oven/toaster oven or forge to get it hot enough for any of these things - won't this temper the hardness out of the knife? The knife has been quenched and tempered already. So I'm confused why most of your suggestions wouldn't negatively impact the heat treat.

(Thanks for the note about safety. I got a Class B fire extinguisher when I got quench oil. And have some fire blankets on order.)

My other question is about a protocol for keeping rust of knives as I work on them. The classes I took were intensive and went start to finish. And I then started using those knives regularly so they have nice patina on them. I can't work like that at home most of the time as my job gets in the way. What I've been doing is forging several knives on consecutive weekends, then heat treating a batch together (mainly so I can temper them together) and then leaving the grinding until later. (When winter rolls into the Northeast I won't be doing as much forging outside and it will be good to have this inside work.) In terms of how to care for things in these different phases, I have the following ideas and questions:
* After forging but before grinding. You say the forge scale protects. Should I also just rub a coat of oil on the whole blade if it's going to sit around for several weeks before heat treat? Mineral oil?
* Same for after heat treat. Now the forge scale is off, this is when I really need to protect things. So mineral oil it right after the heat treat to protect?
* Before I grind, if there is oil on the blade, do I need to take it off? Rubbing alcohol? Soap and water? Or will it just grind off? Will it degrade my belts?
* After I grind, you told me about swarf. I need to get that off the blade, right? What do I use to get it off? Rubbing alcohol? Mineral oil? And then once I get that off I oil it to protect it if I am going to wait to finish sand by hand?

I realize that it complicates things to have delays between all these steps. I'm really enjoying doing this. But I am lucky if I have six hours in a weekend to do it. That includes setting everything up outside and getting stuff put away. So it's got to be in stages.

I'm a teacher by vocation. It has been really affecting to me as a learner how dedicated the blacksmith and knife smith community is to teaching and helping others learn. Much appreciated.
 
1) The temper will be fine:
Most normal blade steels temper around 400°F. Blackening at 350-400°F will not affect the temper. Even a 450°F treatment would only slightly lower the blade hardness. In doing just the handle the blade could be kept cool with a damp cloth while heating the handle with a torch.

2) If you work on a blade in delayed steps and worry about rust:
Oil the blades and store them in a plastic bin with a snap-on cover between sessions. A spray of WD-40 or a wipe/dip of any other oil will be sufficient. When getting back to work on the blades wipe off and excess oil and grind away. The oil on the blade will not be a problem as far as grinding or sanding.
Safety- remember to dispose of or store oily rags safely. Don't pile up on the bench or floor where they can catch a stray spark or potentially combust spontaneously.

If rust is a big issue in your shop, you might want to determine the cause and consider solutions:
If it is from open containers of water like the dunk/slack bucket, or wet paper towels and rags from hand sanding, etc. - remove the wet materials and cover the tubs at the end of the day.

If it is from a dirt floor that is always damp - try to change the drainage around the shop. Consider a water vapor barrier by putting down a heavy mill plastic sheet on the floor and covering it with dry material like crusher-run may help a lot. Making doors and windows more weather tight is also wise. Obviously, fix any roof or other leaks.

If it is in a closed shop or room and humidity is the issue - consider a dehumidifier. I have one in the clean shop that runs 24/7. It keeps the humidity around 45% and drains outside in the garden bed. It also adds moving air to the shop.

Good ventilation is often a simple cure. I have a fan that runs 24/7 in my storage shed and it seems to keep mildew and rust at bay. A fan pointed at the bench while you are not working may solve your rust issue.

Control the temperature swings that lead to condensation - In the clean shop I have a mini-split that runs 24/7. The moving air helps a lot as well as a constant temperature. It is surprisingly good on electric consumption (the clean shop is well insulated). It is really nice to walk into the shop and find it always 72°F and dry regardless of the temperature or humidity outside.
 
Great thanks.

That helps lots.

Only thing I didn't see is about the swarf. If I'm done sanding for the day, is there something that is best to remove this metal dust before I coat with oil? Just wipe with a rag? Rubbing alcohol? Or will the oil that I put on help disperse it? I'd think the oil might trap it.
 
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