Root fires prevention

LMT66

LMT66

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Curious to hear how to line a primitive fire pit to prevent root fires. Thanks in advance :thumbup:
 
i've heard to dig a moat around it but put the dirt back in - basically breaks up the roots and mix it into the soil. you can also bury rocks in the moat.
 
JV3 said:
i've heard to dig a moat around it but put the dirt back in - basically breaks up the roots and mix it into the soil. you can also bury rocks in the moat.
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Yeah. Try to have your fire a ways away from a tree if possible. If not, take a shovel and drive it in all around in a circle around where you're building your fire. The idea being to break the roots for the fire to travel along. A moat would be even better. When you put your fire out, be sure to work water well down into the ground with a stick or a shovel.
 
I never dig a pit and don't understand why anyone does. Same goes for rings of rock. Ya, I know it's supposed to be a spark arrester, but if it's that dry fires are an issue anyway and it's time to use your stove.
 
LMT66 said:
Curious to hear how to line a primitive fire pit to prevent root fires. Thanks in advance :thumbup:
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My first response would be "don't build the fire pit under a tree".
However, sometimes that's just not practical or possible. So, dig down through the top layer of organic/humus-rich soil 'till you hit mineral soil. Line the pit with a 4-6" layer of river sand('cause you're likely camping near a water source anyway) and stones. Use the removed soil to build a low berm around the pit. When finished with the pit, and the fire is OUT and COLD, replace the top soil into the pit and cover over with leafy litter.

20-some-odd years ago in the Blue Ridge Wilderness area of the Adirondacks a group of campers built, used, and left a fire pit without proper management. The pit fire soon smoldered out, but underneath the pit, a Spruce root ball(with air space) had been scorched and continued to smolder on, and on, and on... until months later the embers burnt up through the top soil and the wind ignited flames in the leaf litter. 188 acres of land were scorched and a National Historic Landmark(Great Camp Sagamore/Sagamore Institute of the Adirondacks) was nearly destroyed.
I worked there for several years and used the burn site as a teaching opportunity for some of our environmental programs.

-Peter
 
Will you please go into more detail about how they knew the fire started from that pit and how they knew it was months earlier?

Thanks,
 
ZPstl - I'll try, but mind you I am/was neither a firefighter, nor was I a staff member there at the time of the fire.

The first responders to the fire were two of Sagamore's senior staff members, one of which was a member of the Raquette Lake Vol Fire Dept. Both of these folks were aware of the people camping just down the Lake Trail, in the Wilderness Area... quite legally. By their(Sagamore staff) accounts, the point-source of above ground ignition was quite apparent, and only about 300 yards down the lake-side trail from the Great Camp itself. The camper's well defined camp site was about 30 feet from that point in less compacted soil. They began suppression efforts using Sagamore's resources until the "pros" arrived about 45 min later(its quite a distance to the camp from town).

The Adirondack Park is essentially a large dome of rock. The Blue Mountain Wilderness is on the western slope of that dome. Because these mountains are a geologically young formation, there is relatively little top soil in many areas. There is also a proliferation of Spruce and Fir in that region, both of which are famous for their loooooong roots which remain quite near the ground surface. When these roots run up against a large buried rock face they can "ball-up", and in turn create a cavity with air space. This was exactly the case in this particular spot. You can still see the area of charred tree stumps as well as the now over grown camp site area used by the campers.

Our local Forest Ranger at the time used to assist with some of our programs at the Great Camp. When I arrived there, "The Adirondacks and Fire" was one of the first workshop topics he offered.

That's about all I know.... hope it helps explain things.
 
This has never been a problem for me. Sometimes there is a tendancy to overthink a very simple thing. If in doubt keep pouring on the water. While I am no expert my experience is that a fire is hard enough to get going using primitive means and they take tending and feeding to keep them going. I am not trying to question any other posters but I am suspicious of the smoldering for months theory. They do get rain and snow in the Adirondaks. I think another, simpler explanation would be more likely. Also like the other poster was saying, why a pit? other than in some special circumstanses you will lose some of the benefit of the heat and light, not to mention more work.

Regards,
Josh
 
I agree. You would have to dig up the carbon left from the roots and age it. That is the only way you could both trace it and connect the two and be able to tell if the tree caught fire first or the roots.

I believe roots could cause a fire, but I think this is an example of someone trying to stress a point turning it to fiction.
 
For you all who are skeptical of fires like this there are variations on the same theme you should be aware of. If you ever make a fire on ground that contains peat or is near a peat bog in dry years there can be fires that continue underground for weeks and weeks. Now even worse is if an area that has coal seams running close to the surface has a fire or lightning strike on an exposed seam those fires can go on for decades. I forget the name of the small town in PA that had to be abandoned because of a coal fire. So all that to say if you are camping or hiking through an area that you aren't familiar with keep your fires on surfaces that you are sure of whenever you can. It can happen with shallow rooted conifers and you could cause a large fire to show itself later and never know it.
 
willseeyalater said:
I forget the name of the small town in PA that had to be abandoned because of a coal fire.
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i remember reading and seeing pics of that too! not sure where exactly did i see it but the poster took a number of interesting photographs while exploring the area - reminded me of chernobyl.
 
Centralia, PA. It has been burning since the early 1960's. The highway exit going in and out was blocked off so no one can drive in. I guess you can hike in but at your own risk. The ground under you could collapse if a seam underneath has burned out and weakened the overburden.
 
If I remember correctly Centralia, Pa was the inspiration for the video game and crappy movie 'Silent Hill'. Last article I read said some people still live there, refusing to move.
I think there's a big difference between extinguishing a pit fire and putting out a fire in a coal mine with temperatures of 1000 deg F ( according to at least one report).
By the way, LMT66 by Primitive do you mean the same as Dakota Fire Pit? I think they're interesting, but too much work. Plus I can't remember the last time I camped where "Leave no Trace" wouldn't apply.
 
You are allowed into Centralia now a days, I was there a couple months ago with some friends experimenting with long exposure photography. There isn't much left of the town after forcing most of the residents out. A few people remain but the rest has been bulldozed. And yes I believe silent hill was based around Centralia, mainly the old abandoned church that is still standing (the creepiest part of the whole town)
Sorry I know all this was off topic of the thread. But to get on topic, I've only ever had to build a fire pit a couple times. Always because it was so windy I needed the pit to assist me in getting it successfully lit. I always made sure to dig a lot wider and deeper than I really needed and then back filled to the appropiate size in hopes of preventing a root fire.
 
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