"rough" or "middle" cut files?

samuraistuart

samuraistuart

Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
3,158
I don't suppose they make "middle", or even "rough" cut files any longer? The coarsest you can buy is bastard now? I searched the net and found one Chinese made middle cut file....no thanks. I'm cutting my bevels with a file, draw filing at the end. I'm searching for a file that is going to cut faster than a double cut bastard. I think the longer your file is, the "coarser" the teeth are for any given cut, so bigger is better. Also, I've seen (but not used) the "Magi-cut" or whatever pattern, and was wondering as well if any of you had experience with using it, and if it removes metal faster.

I'm limited in space, noise, funds, etc.......so I'm sticking with files.....enjoying it really. But was hoping to find a fast cutting file. Does a half-round file (the half round part) remove metal faster than a flat file? I'm thinking it does, right? The pressure being concentrated on a smaller surface area?

Your advice and experience is much, much appreciated. Thank you!

Stuart
 
look for swiss pattern files 00 is super agressive a 1 is medium they go up to super fine 4 or 5. grobet is a very good european manufacturer. msc carries them.
 
I have a large amount of experience with files, and I will say that by far the fastest way I found was the magicut files. They hog off material like no one's business. However, I have had bad experiences with the new made-in-mexico Magicuts. One of them I got was bent so that there was a 1/16th-1/8th inch gap between the file and the table when it was layed down. It also had a bad spot where the HT was messed up.

I would call this a isolated incident, except for the fact that it has been a bit of trend as far as the non-US made nicholsons have gone. In a thread where I asked for recommendations, I was told to look at Pferd files. I have not tried them, but they came with good recommendations.

Give the magicuts a try and see if they do better for you. I would send you one, but I'm almost out. Jantz has them for cheap and you can stock up on a couple other things at the same time to make the shipping more bearable.
 
00 cut swiss as mentioned is super aggressive, get the largest file you can afford.

Most Nicholson files are pretty crap, although the Brazilian ones seem better than the mexican ones, and I've got a large round Brazil Nicholson that's actually quite good.


Otto-Frei has Grobet files on quite good sale at the moment.
 
I've been on a file buying and researching kick for the past several months.

The Swiss-made Grobet files are great. But do not buy the current Grobet-USA files. I tried 4 different Grobet-USA files, bought online from Reid Supply. The USA ones were priced way less, and I found out it's because they're pretty crappy unfortunately. Maybe whoever manufactures the Grobet-USA has switched factories, because I've seen vintage ones that are have Grobet USA stamped into the steel, while the ones I bought a couple of months ago have the brand stenciled/etched on in a sloppy manner. Two of them were half-round and were okay but weren't as good as India made files I bought back in the 80s for a couple of dollars when I wasn't even trying to buy quality. One was a square 00 cut file which was just had blunt teeth. The last one, a long-angle lathe file, was warped and twisted along its length and width.

Meanwhile, the two Swiss made Grobet needle files are excellent.

Do try the Pferd brand files if you can find them. They're made in Germany and the 3 I bought at a welding shop seem quite good, though I haven't had a chance to use them extensively.

But as far as the roughness of cut, generally
Bastard = rough = 00 cut
Second cut = medium = 1 cut
Smooth cut = fine = 3 cut and above

If you see Bastard, Second, or Smooth cut on a file, it means the cut pattern follows the American style. The Swiss uses the numeric ratings of 00-0-1-2-3, etc. up to 6 I think, with the lower numbers the rougher. I don't know how much difference the pattern style makes, but I think it's more important to get a quality manufacturer.

For draw filing, I recommend getting the Long Angle Lathe file. Its teeth are at a higher angle, so when you're draw filing the teeth aligns a little more diagonally to the length of the knife, whereas the normal angled cuts will align closer to parallel with the length of the knife when you draw file.

Search eBay for vintage files stil in good shape. Most of the time the description will say "new old stock", or "nos" for short. Many sellers have unused files made decades ago and grab those if you can. Good "nos" file brands would be Nicholson (USA made), Simonds (USA), Disston, Sandvik (Swedish), Dick (German or Swiss I think). You can get very good deals on quality files this way. I've been doing that for weeks in order to stockpile a collection of different quality files, because it seems like the trend these days is for once quality file companies to go the cheaply made and cheap quality route.
 
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thegeek574 said:
I have a large amount of experience with files, and I will say that by far the fastest way I found was the magicut files. They hog off material like no one's business. However, I have had bad experiences with the new made-in-mexico Magicuts. One of them I got was bent so that there was a 1/16th-1/8th inch gap between the file and the table when it was layed down. It also had a bad spot where the HT was messed up.

I would call this a isolated incident, except for the fact that it has been a bit of trend as far as the non-US made nicholsons have gone. In a thread where I asked for recommendations, I was told to look at Pferd files. I have not tried them, but they came with good recommendations.

Give the magicuts a try and see if they do better for you. I would send you one, but I'm almost out. Jantz has them for cheap and you can stock up on a couple other things at the same time to make the shipping more bearable.
Click to expand...

+1 on the Magicut files........super good at fast removal for beveling.
 
OK, gentlemen. Thanks so much for the replies. I was raised in a True Value hardware store, and I had NO IDEA there were so many variables to files, especially when you add the Swiss style. I will look into your recommendations!!!!

To thegeek574, thanks for offering to send me one! That is above and beyond the call of duty, no doubt. If I might add, I want to say that I'm thoroughly enjoying these forums, and the quality of people that are on here. What a blessing.
 
javand said:
00 cut swiss as mentioned is super aggressive, get the largest file you can afford.

Most Nicholson files are pretty crap, although the Brazilian ones seem better than the mexican ones, and I've got a large round Brazil Nicholson that's actually quite good.


Otto-Frei has Grobet files on quite good sale at the moment.
Click to expand...

I bought a big ol course 16" nicholson and I agree. A few of the teeth rolled like the edge of a knife blade the first time I used it :(
 
samuraistuart said:
OK, gentlemen. Thanks so much for the replies. I was raised in a True Value hardware store, and I had NO IDEA there were so many variables to files, especially when you add the Swiss style. I will look into your recommendations!!!!

To thegeek574, thanks for offering to send me one! That is above and beyond the call of duty, no doubt. If I might add, I want to say that I'm thoroughly enjoying these forums, and the quality of people that are on here. What a blessing.
Click to expand...

Must be a lack of communication. I;m really sorry, but my last one is basically dead. I've relegated it to rough draw filing duty. I don't have any more, and I will be experimenting after i finally kill this one. Sorry to send the wrong message.
Steven
 
thegeek574 said:
Must be a lack of communication. I;m really sorry, but my last one is basically dead. I've relegated it to rough draw filing duty. I don't have any more, and I will be experimenting after i finally kill this one. Sorry to send the wrong message.
Steven
Click to expand...

Hey, no worries! It's not like I was actually expecting you to send it, you were clear in your post that you didn't have any. Seems like I remember a Magi-cut file at Lowe's down the street. I'll pick it up next time I'm there. If it doesn't offer much improvement, I'll try the Gorbet files.
 
Stuart-

I am still dependent on decent files for virtually everything I make. I have been using Simonds Multi-Kut American pattern files for over six years now and am still impressed by the quality. I most often grab the 14" version for shaping duties in knife and tool work and they universally earn their keep several times over.

An often overlooked feature of this type of file (including Nicholson's Magicut) is flat out versatility. Depending on how much down pressure you use, you can hog off unhardened steel where the swarf is actually helical chips - for real. Or you can use a light touch for draw filing and end up with such a nice surface, you could easily move straight to 120X paper afterwards. Bottom line is that they rarely gall because the swarf is managed so much better (virtually no pinning). The steel and HT quality are still as good as it gets - worth every $$ IMHO.

General thoughts. Take care of your files. Don't let them bang together in storage drawers or racks. I make a new hardboard and colored tape "sheath" for every file I use and date them so I know what is what (usually). Keep the dust off of your stored files. Dust attracts/holds moisture and that leads to rust. Rust is usually the death of good files as it's not like you only have a single cutting edge to resurrect. (cough...Boggs Tool Service...cough)

Also use good handles that match the file and the job. It may be a wine bottle cork, a golf ball, antler tine or an over-priced piece of American Hickory that has ventured to China and back. Using big files with a lot of power and no handle is just asking for pain.

Do your best to stabilize your work piece. No flex, vibration or movement under a lot of down/side pressure will almost offset a dull file IME.

Finally, as several folks here have mentioned recently, I am also wary of any big box store tools for good reasons. I bought my last set from Rutlands Supply - before they got bought out by MSC. Do yourself a favor and buy the best you can afford from your preferred industrial supplier.

Regards.
 
samuraistuart said:
Hey, no worries! It's not like I was actually expecting you to send it, you were clear in your post that you didn't have any. Seems like I remember a Magi-cut file at Lowe's down the street. I'll pick it up next time I'm there. If it doesn't offer much improvement, I'll try the Gorbet files.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't waste my money with any files down at Lowes man. Nicholson files are no longer made in the USA as mentioned, and they're not great quality. There are a few "USA" labeled ones still on the shelves, but they're from the last runs at the factories and the ones I've gotten sucked.

Check ebay for NOS files.
 
Mr Lewis,

Thanks for the input!!! I know, I should be shot for even setting foot inside my nearest BORG store!! I walked in there earlier today....no magicut files. Geez. I was looking at their selection, and a few of the 8" bastard files had MISSING ROWES OF TEETH!!!!! The quality control guy (laugh) must have been asleep at the factory. Seems like EVERY time I go in there for something specific.....they no gottee. Their sandpaper selection is atrocious. Auto Parts stores have a much better selection than my local BORG. I'll be online as soon as I post this to check out the Simonds multi-cut.

I've learned a little about files lately. Besides the different American/Swiss patterns, I learned that they MUST be dry. Seems like any lubricant actually hinderes the cutting ability, and leaves you with "stingers" or "pins" or whatever you call them. I dare not even TOUCH the face of the file. Also, every few strokes, I've been cleaning the file. Makes a huge difference. I've marked the three main files that I have......new, old, oldest. I should do a better job storing them. I don't let them touch each other, tho. My work piece is anchored down with two clamps, and I support the underside bevel when filing the bevel on the other side, so there is no flex downward. I am also careful (as much as possible) to keep an eye on flexing the file myself, with too much pressure. Gotta be flat!!!!

So again, thanks Mr Lewis!

MSC here I come.
 
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