Rough Ryder - Quality of carbon steel? If you can, also please tell about your experiences with their 440.

[Hashishiin]

Yep, I'm being a hypocrite, but with thousands spent on American knives, I think I'm okay to spend less than 20 on one quality slippie till I can get a GEC... and the sixty bucks I spent on a Case Toothpick being, other then the purp/blue Corleon, the most disappointing knife in fit and finish, steel (won't sharpen) I have ever received outside of BudK (you could tell me it was a Frost or a Kissing Crane and I would believe you, those guys have plenty pretty handle materials). Maybe their carbon is better than their Trusharp but... I think I will just wait until I can get a GEC in red micarta... I don't want to fw Case any more for now. So...

I have one RR. It is a Cotton Sampler in beautiful stag. It has a sharp blade that I just made sharper yesterday. Very happy with every part of it. Now, I know it will be some time and money before I can get my red micarta GEC, so I want a good slippie in the meantime because I wanna carry my Microtech UTX-70, I do, but I'm just not willing to catch a felony by EDCing it.

The steel is labeled as "surgical razor sharp stainless". I do not know if this translates to their 440A, B, or C, or their CR steels. If you know, please tell. I was planning on buying a carbon steel knife from the brand, as well as another stainless, just for the hell of it. How do you guys like the carbon (and stainless, if you have the time to talk about it) steel? How does it hold up to use, how does it sharpen? I basically want you to blab to me all of your Rough Ryder experiences and all the feelings you have about the knives.

I really wanted to like Case, and I will only run so much after a GEC. Spyderco is THERE. Buck is THERE. Ontario - THERE. I can't buy American if it isn't there, and maybe Case should step their game up. If their carbon steel is so good, I'll buy one for half-off, and give you the other half once I know it's a good knife. Sorry, I'm a staunch "buy from free countries" person, so this is probably me feeling guilty about buying Chinese. Anyways, your thoughts?

 

[Lee D]

Multi tool and multi purpose knife related?

 

[Hashishiin]

Multi tool and multi purpose knife related?

Whoops! I meant to post this in the Traditionals section!

My mistake, would a mod please move this for me? Blues knarfeng

 

[afishhunter]

Yep, I'm being a hypocrite, but with thousands spent on American knives, I think I'm okay to spend less than 20 on one quality slippie till I can get a GEC... and the sixty bucks I spent on a Case Toothpick being, other then the purp/blue Corleon, the most disappointing knife in fit and finish, steel (won't sharpen) I have ever received outside of BudK (you could tell me it was a Frost or a Kissing Crane and I would believe you, those guys have plenty pretty handle materials). Maybe their carbon is better than their Trusharp but... I think I will just wait until I can get a GEC in red micarta... I don't want to fw Case any more for now. So...

I have one RR. It is a Cotton Sampler in beautiful stag. It has a sharp blade that I just made sharper yesterday. Very happy with every part of it. Now, I know it will be some time and money before I can get my red micarta GEC, so I want a good slippie in the meantime because I wanna carry my Microtech UTX-70, I do, but I'm just not willing to catch a felony by EDCing it.

The steel is labeled as "surgical razor sharp stainless". I do not know if this translates to their 440A, B, or C, or their CR steels. If you know, please tell. I was planning on buying a carbon steel knife from the brand, as well as another stainless, just for the hell of it. How do you guys like the carbon (and stainless, if you have the time to talk about it) steel? How does it hold up to use, how does it sharpen? I basically want you to blab to me all of your Rough Ryder experiences and all the feelings you have about the knives.

I really wanted to like Case, and I will only run so much after a GEC. Spyderco is THERE. Buck is THERE. Ontario - THERE. I can't buy American if it isn't there, and maybe Case should step their game up. If their carbon steel is so good, I'll buy one for half-off, and give you the other half once I know it's a good knife. Sorry, I'm a staunch "buy from free countries" person, so this is probably me feeling guilty about buying Chinese. Anyways, your thoughts?

RR's stainless is 440A with a good heat treat. Easy to sharpen and holds an edge. I've taken all of mine to 10DPS/20 inclusive on a guided rod sharpener. No problems with chipped or rolled edges.
Their carbon steel is "T10". From what I can tell, it also has a good heat treat, and can handle an acute 10DPS/20inclusive edge. I think T10 falls somewhere between 1095 and 5160.
(taking them to 10 degrees per side also thins them behind the edge, making them great slicers. When resetting the edge angle, you don't lose any blade steel if you stop when the new angle meets the existing edge.)
I have around 60 stainless Rough Rider (several different patterns), 5 with carbon steel, (4 classic carbon) and one of the Colt canoes with carbon steel before that one was moved to the Rough Rider line when they lost (or gave up) the Colt license.
The Colt and carbon steel RR Moose (not a Classic Carbon) have 1/8 inch blade stock. The Classic Carbon series have the "standard" 1/16 inch blade stock.
I think I read online that T10 has a small percentage of tungsten in the alloy. It will patina, but not as easy as 10xx does.

Based on my experiences with their 440A and T10, I don't/won't lose any sleep recommending them.

 

[Hashishiin]

RR's stainless is 440A with a good heat treat. Easy to sharpen and holds an edge. I've taken all of mine to 10DPS/20 inclusive on a guided rod sharpener. No problems with chipped or rolled edges.
Their carbon steel is "T10". From what I can tell, it also has a good heat treat, and can handle an acute 10DPS/20inclusive edge. I think T10 falls somewhere between 1095 and 5160.
(taking them to 10 degrees per side also thins them behind the edge, making them great slicers. When resetting the edge angle, you don't lose any blade steel if you stop when the new angle meets the existing edge.)
I have around 60 stainless Rough Rider (several different patterns), 5 with carbon steel, (4 classic carbon) and one of the Colt canoes with carbon steel before that one was moved to the Rough Rider line when they lost (or gave up) the Colt license.
The Colt and carbon steel RR Moose (not a Classic Carbon) have 1/8 inch blade stock. The Classic Carbon series have the "standard" 1/16 inch blade stock.
I think I read online that T10 has a small percentage of tungsten in the alloy. It will patina, but not as easy as 10xx does.

Based on my experiences with their 440A and T10, I don't/won't lose any sleep recommending them.

Cool, I was hoping that my Cotton Sampler was representative of their stainless. I had a really good time sharpening it. What a crazy shape Cotton Samplers are, huh? I just love it, for no reason. It's like a Southern tanto, hahah.

The carbon... Between 1095 and 5160? Sounds perfect for my needs... I lean towards carbon, and in slipjoints especially, I like that simple, easy to sharpen steel. Glad to know the carbon models are thinner, too!

What I was eyeing, was a beautiful Wharncliffe + spey Trapper for the carbon, and one of those Red Pick Bone stockmans. I think they shall serve just fine Thank you for the info about the ideal angle, I actually have me a KME professional sharpening system in the mail (to give me good edges while I practice hand sharpening) and finally might be able to bring those angles down. Have you done that on any of yours, brought the angle down?

 

[MolokaiRider]

Yep, I'm being a hypocrite, but with thousands spent on American knives, I think I'm okay to spend less than 20 on one quality slippie till I can get a GEC... and the sixty bucks I spent on a Case Toothpick being, other then the purp/blue Corleon, the most disappointing knife in fit and finish, steel (won't sharpen) I have ever received outside of BudK (you could tell me it was a Frost or a Kissing Crane and I would believe you, those guys have plenty pretty handle materials). Maybe their carbon is better than their Trusharp but... I think I will just wait until I can get a GEC in red micarta... I don't want to fw Case any more for now. So...

I have one RR. It is a Cotton Sampler in beautiful stag. It has a sharp blade that I just made sharper yesterday. Very happy with every part of it. Now, I know it will be some time and money before I can get my red micarta GEC, so I want a good slippie in the meantime because I wanna carry my Microtech UTX-70, I do, but I'm just not willing to catch a felony by EDCing it.

The steel is labeled as "surgical razor sharp stainless". I do not know if this translates to their 440A, B, or C, or their CR steels. If you know, please tell. I was planning on buying a carbon steel knife from the brand, as well as another stainless, just for the hell of it. How do you guys like the carbon (and stainless, if you have the time to talk about it) steel? How does it hold up to use, how does it sharpen? I basically want you to blab to me all of your Rough Ryder experiences and all the feelings you have about the knives.

I really wanted to like Case, and I will only run so much after a GEC. Spyderco is THERE. Buck is THERE. Ontario - THERE. I can't buy American if it isn't there, and maybe Case should step their game up. If their carbon steel is so good, I'll buy one for half-off, and give you the other half once I know it's a good knife. Sorry, I'm a staunch "buy from free countries" person, so this is probably me feeling guilty about buying Chinese. Anyways, your thoughts?

What was the edge issue with the Case? If it is stainless (420hc) it has a tendency to have a persistent burr. It also will perform a bit better with a steeper edge angle.

F&F can certainly be hit or miss, as you noted.

 

[Hashishiin]

What was the edge issue with the Case? If it is stainless (420hc) it has a tendency to have a persistent burr. It also will perform a bit better with a steeper edge angle.

F&F can certainly be hit or miss, as you noted.

Well, the F&F, and this may be the geometry, but it just will not sharpen properly. I will give it a few more times, but... maybe it's the blade shape.

I should give the steel another try in a different blade shape before writing it off, you are right.

 

[MolokaiRider]

Well, the F&F, and this may be the geometry, but it just will not sharpen properly. I will give it a few more times, but... maybe it's the blade shape.

I should give the steel another try in a different blade shape before writing it off, you are right.

Is it stainless or carbon?

 

[afishhunter]

Cool, I was hoping that my Cotton Sampler was representative of their stainless. I had a really good time sharpening it. What a crazy shape Cotton Samplers are, huh? I just love it, for no reason. It's like a Southern tanto, hahah.

The carbon... Between 1095 and 5160? Sounds perfect for my needs... I lean towards carbon, and in slipjoints especially, I like that simple, easy to sharpen steel. Glad to know the carbon models are thinner, too!

What I was eyeing, was a beautiful Wharncliffe + spey Trapper for the carbon, and one of those Red Pick Bone stockmans. I think they shall serve just fine Thank you for the info about the ideal angle, I actually have me a KME professional sharpening system in the mail (to give me good edges while I practice hand sharpening) and finally might be able to bring those angles down. Have you done that on any of yours, brought the angle down?

i believe the factory angle is around 15DPD/30 Inclusive. For reasons unknown to me, that somewhat obtuse angle seems to be the "standard" these days for pocket knives. I suspect it has something to do with the "tactical" craze that started a few years back. Tho how a slipjoint or friction folder is "tactical" ....

I basically thin the edge to 10 degrees per side the first time I sharpen/reprofile/set the edge. I never use a "micro bevel". Why take the time and put in the effort to get an acute edge angle, then dull it with an obtuse angle?

When I was young and was taught how to sharpen by my father, uncles, grandfathers, grand mothers, maternal great grand father, and great great grand mother, they were unanimous: "Lay the blade flat on the stone. Raise the spine just enough so the flat of the blade clears the stone, about 10 degrees, like you're shaving the stone. Push the edge on the stone - NEVER pull the edge. Pulling causes a wire edge. If you get a wire edge you up."

Somewhere in my camper I have an old Case sharpening guide which says to hold the blade at 10° to the stone.
I was taught knives and cleavers were properly sharpened to 10 degrees per side (±2 degrees) while axes, hatchets, and other chopping tools were 15 degrees per side. (a straight razor was whatever angle you got with the spine on the stone, usually around 3 to 5 degrees, and you always used a hard Arkansas oil stone on the razor, and that only when stropping (no polishing paste) didn't restore the edge.)
They were also unanimous in "Once you have it sharp, a strop is generally all you need to restore a working edge. You don't need your knife to have a "razor edge". That "razor edge" is gone after a short time. The working edge is more important."

Also, tho it sounds counter productive, the more acute the edge angle, the longer your working edge lasts.

 

[MolokaiRider]

I agree with afishhunter in a thin edge performs better in most cases (there is a pun there I think).

However, in regards to Case Tru-sharp, it seems to benefit from a larger edge angle, as the steel is very soft and prone to create a burr.

As the blades themselves are already quite thin, and steeper secondary bevel will make the edge last longer, and also tends to knock the burr off easier.

Of course, this is subjective based on my uses. Others are going to have different opinions.

 

[calm]

Though I do not have any of the Carbon Steel ones the steel they use in their SS and D2 models works fine and they come nicely sharp from the box.

 

[Wild Willie]

If you really want a quality slipjoint, save a bit more than you'll pay for a gec on the secondary, and start to look at customs. I've been eyeing some of John Lloyd's work of late, and you can usually find them on the exchange for a couple hundred more than you'll pay for a secondary market production knife.

 

[Rich S]

I've numerous RR stainless. 440A I am told. Sharpens easily and IMHO is a good "economy" knife. Some folks have to have a Rolls-Royce, fine for them. I'm a Ford guy. Don't see paying 3-4 figure prices and chasing today's "in" knife for something a $20 knife will do. The some RR's do have a somewhat stiff pull and I don't care for the match striker nail nicks. Overall a good functional knife in a variety of styles.

 

[Hickory n steel]

I've never had a truly bad Case, and I've never really gotten a RR that wasn't exactly what you'd expect for a knife that cheap.
I bought one for my cousin and it came with glue all over it and a scale loose in the box, a moose that was basically impossible to open, a sowbelly stockman with blades that rattled, but theres a couple others that people had gifted me which were also terrible.
I did actually get a miniature trapper that was pretty much perfect which really surprised me, but that's the only good one I've ever gotten


You should give Case another chance, I've gotten knives from Case that GEC couldn't possibly top, my 63032, my slimline trapper, and my first 6208 came just about perfect.


There are people who've had nothing but good or bad luck with both, for me it's been good with Case and bad with RR, and I'm just not very inclined to put much faith in the quality of a knife some poorly paid workers in China can pump out for such little money.

 

[afishhunter]

I've never really gotten a RR that wasn't exactly what you'd expect for a knife that cheap.
I bought one for my cousin and it came with glue all over it and a scale loose in the box, a moose that was basically impossible to open, a sowbelly stockman with blades that rattled, but theres a couple others that people had gifted me which were also terrible.
I did actually get a miniature trapper that was pretty much perfect which really surprised me, but that's the only good one I've ever gotten

Huh ... Out of the 60 odd RR I've bought over the years, three had problems.
A 5.25 inch closed white bone coke bottle had a cracked cover by the center pin. A little super glue and a nail file fixed it.

When I took the twisted bone canoe out of the box (mark side was down) the shield stayed in the box. A couple drops of super glue reattached the shield.

A really fancy baby sunfish was the worst of the lot. The main blade had a pull of around "5". The secondary was around a "25".

To open it, you had to open the primary, then use a screwdriver to pry the secondary up enough to grab it with pliers to get it open the rest of the way. Cleaning, flushing and lubing the joint didn't do anything. I traded it off at a pawnshop somewhere on the East Coast for a cellphone holster that would hold a large sunfish and a "MADE IN USA" brand pen knife with black "jigged" celluloid covers. (gave it to a expedited van driver that worked for the same company. I was solo in an expedited box truck at the time.)
The baby sunfish didn't have any blade rub, and the secondary wasn't hitting the liner.

All the rest had/have no issues worth mentioning or that affect functionality. A couple have cosmetic "defects" such as have to search for them with a bright light gaps between the backsprings and liners, blades not perfectly centered, a cigarette paper wide gap at the cover and bolster, minor things like that. None have blade rub or wiggly wobbly blades, and average a "5" pull on all the blades.

Based on my experience and that of those in the Rough Rider and Related thread, your experience is in the minority.

Since the Rough Rider comes with a lifetime warranty, have you contacted SMKW about the problems you've had?

I contacted them about a Marbles MR278 I bought that came with a SPORK. Some "genius" (note quotes) in marketing or packaging decided that all four blades should be partly opened in the hang pack. You guessed it. Busted backspring before the package was opened.
I emailed them a photo, they sent me another MR278, and didn't want the busted one back. (I still have it for a can opener. The busted spring was the main blade and punch/awl.)