Rust under Kraton handle. Advice?

[Jamesh Bond]

Hey all.

I have an old CS Master Hunter (Carbon V) from the 90's that I am very fond of. I patina'd the blade with apple Cider vinegar to blacken it. Used a combo of wrapping in soaked paper towels and letting it sit, combined with buffing and soaked cotton wipedowns.

It turned out pretty sweet, but after the process was complete, I noticed red rust around the ricasso, which also appears to be extending down under the Kraton.

The old handle seems have allowed the vinegar to seep under it. I can bend the molded "guard" enough create a visible gap, but it's not big enough to see into to get a good look.


So, I'm wondering how far this could have gone down the tang under the handle. It is possible the rust is localized and didn't form in that gap, but I'm posting under the assumption that it did, and could cause problems.

So basically, I'd like to ask about 3 options:

1 - Complete rehandling? If I go this route, whether DIY or sent out, any suggestions?

2 - Ignore it? I'm known to overthink things. After all, I AM a member of an internet forum. Maybe it's only surface rust? Maybe it won't get worse? Lack of oxygen? Etc.. . . Any solid reasons to disregard this potential issue?

3 - Another idea I had, is to maybe spray something like WD-40 in there, to neutralize the corrosion. Thoughts on this?

Id just like to avoid my tang rusting out on me, if that's even a legitimate concern.

As always, thanks for your time. Looking forward.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Wd 40.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

While it will work for the rust, wouldn't the WD40 be dissolving the kraton? I heard the solvent can dissolve rubber or perhaps also kraton?

 

[Jamesh Bond]

I wondered this too.

 

[killgar]

I don't know if Cold Steel glued the handle onto that knife, but if they didn't, my suggestion would be to drill out the lanyard hole grommet, slide the handle off, clean off the rust, and then slide the handle back on and secure it with a screw and binding post through the lanyard hole (you might need a washer under the screw head). Aluminum binding posts are sold in a variety of hardware stores (like Home Depot, Lowe's) in the nuts and bolts section. The posts come with an 8-32 screw, but you can use any 8-32 screw you want.

I have a CS Peacekeeper, and that's what I did with the handle (kraton handle, no glue). I like being able to take my knives apart, I don't like them keeping "secrets" from me. If a tang had the potential to rust, or was in the process of rusting, I would definitely want to have full access to it.

 

[Jamesh Bond]

That was another option I considered, but wasn't sure how to do it properly. Searches we unfruitful.

I'll look into it again.

Thx.

 

[Aias]

Mr Bond... I just had my Cattaraugus 225q rehandled; there was rust under the old leather handle. It turned out very well. I posted before and after pics in a thread about military issue knives; if interested, send me an email. The work was done by a member of BF; since I do not believe he's a paid service provider, I won't post his business info.

 

[hermit dave]

I am a big Cold Steel fan, but I won't ever buy one of their Kraton handled, uncoated, carbon steel fixed blades, for that very reason. Would it really be that hard to coat the tang?

Moisture that's sandwiched in like that is a recipe for deep, flaky, destructive rust.

 

[killgar]

That was another option I considered, but wasn't sure how to do it properly. Searches we unfruitful.

I'll look into it again.

Thx.

If you were referring to my post, it's a very simple procedure. All of the below is assuming the handle on your knife isn't glued onto the tang.

All the tools you need are a hand drill, 1 drill bit, and either a vice or a clamp. Secure the blade in a vice or clamp it to something stable, use a drill bit 2 sizes larger than the hole going through the grommet (find the bit that just barely passes through the hole, then select two sizes up), and carefully drill the grommet on one side. Since it's a grommet, it should hold the bit in place, so there shouldn't be any concern of the bit traveling. Use light pressure when drilling to prevent the bit from grabbing the grommet and spinning it. If that happens, one solution is to "crush" the outer edges of the grommet inwards with needle nose pliers until you can push it through the tang and opposite side of the handle (that's another method for removing a handle grommet, I've used it before, but I prefer to try drilling first).

The grommet should be made of soft metal, so there won't be any problem drilling it with a standard bit. After the bit cuts through the inner walls of the grommet, that side of the grommet should pop off (a ring of metal, that end of the grommet, will likely stick on the bit). After you drill the end of the grommet off, push the other end of the grommet out, and you're done. Except for cleaning the tang and reassembly.

To reassemble, just push the handle back onto the tang, line up the old grommet holes in the tang and handle, slide a binding post through the handle and tang, and secure it tightly with a screw. You want a binding post that is long enough to go through one side of the handle, through the tang, and into the other side of the handle, but not all the way through the other side. They are sold in different lengths. From my experience, Lowe's binding posts are "low profile", as in the edges of the post head are tapered or domed, whereas the Home Depot posts have thick edges.

Here are a few pics of my Peacekeeper.

I used a "low profile" post and an allen socket 8-32 screw with a washer (the head of the screw was too small for the hole in the handle). The post I used was a little short, but it's what I had handy at the time, and the Peacekeeper isn't one of my users. Performing this mod you can remove and reattach your handle whenever you feel like it. You just can't use a lanyard.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

I don't think I have ever seen a fixed blade knife that was rusted through on the tang, and I have seen a lot of knives-old ones.
I wouldn't worry too much about it.

 

[Jamesh Bond]

Mr Bond... I just had my Cattaraugus 225q rehandled; there was rust under the old leather handle. It turned out very well. I posted before and after pics in a thread about military issue knives; if interested, send me an email. The work was done by a member of BF; since I do not believe he's a paid service provider, I won't post his business info.

Thank you sir. I shall.

How bad was the rust?

 

[Jamesh Bond]

If you were referring to my post, it's a very simple procedure. All of the below is assuming the handle on your knife isn't glued onto the tang.

All the tools you need are a hand drill, 1 drill bit, and either a vice or a clamp. Secure the blade in a vice or clamp it to something stable, use a drill bit 2 sizes larger than the hole going through the grommet (find the bit that just barely passes through the hole, then select two sizes up), and carefully drill the grommet on one side. Since it's a grommet, it should hold the bit in place, so there shouldn't be any concern of the bit traveling. Use light pressure when drilling to prevent the bit from grabbing the grommet and spinning it. If that happens, one solution is to "crush" the outer edges of the grommet inwards with needle nose pliers until you can push it through the tang and opposite side of the handle (that's another method for removing a handle grommet, I've used it before, but I prefer to try drilling first).

The grommet should be made of soft metal, so there won't be any problem drilling it with a standard bit. After the bit cuts through the inner walls of the grommet, that side of the grommet should pop off (a ring of metal, that end of the grommet, will likely stick on the bit). After you drill the end of the grommet off, push the other end of the grommet out, and you're done. Except for cleaning the tang and reassembly.

To reassemble, just push the handle back onto the tang, line up the old grommet holes in the tang and handle, slide a binding post through the handle and tang, and secure it tightly with a screw. You want a binding post that is long enough to go through one side of the handle, through the tang, and into the other side of the handle, but not all the way through the other side. They are sold in different lengths. From my experience, Lowe's binding posts are "low profile", as in the edges of the post head are tapered or domed, whereas the Home Depot posts have thick edges.

Here are a few pics of my Peacekeeper.

I used a "low profile" post and an allen socket 8-32 screw with a washer (the head of the screw was too small for the hole in the handle). The post I used was a little short, but it's what I had handy at the time, and the Peacekeeper isn't one of my users. Performing this mod you can remove and reattach your handle whenever you feel like it. You just can't use a lanyard.

I was, indeed.

Most processes are pretty simple, as long as the order of operations is clear.

I thank you!

 

[Alberta Ed]

Squirt some BreakFree in there and don't worry about it.

 

[Jamesh Bond]

I don't think I have ever seen a fixed blade knife that was rusted through on the tang, and I have seen a lot of knives-old ones.
I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Thank you Bill.

I was hoping for an answer like this. I've always wondered how bad a knife actually could corrode under those hard to clean areas. Theory says it could eventually rust out. But physical specimens of old rusty knives I've seen didn't show much besides surface marks. Unless they were neglected.

We hobbyists are plagued by too much info these days. Hard to select which is accurate. So we hypothesize potential problems that may not even be possible.

Do you know if Kraton is WD-40 safe, by chance?

 

[Bill DeShivs]

I don't KNOW, but I imagine it is.

 

[killgar]

To me, this topic goes beyond rust. The way I see it, every knife mod a person performs increases their experience, and that might inspire them and give them confidence to perform other mods. If James is able to remove the handle of his knife without damaging it, perhaps at some point he will decide to try his hand at making his own custom handle.

I don't know if James has any interest in future knife modding, or ever making his own handles, but if he does, everyone has to start somewhere. The fact that he put a patina on his blade leads me to believe that he might have an interest in knife modding. Does James NEED to remove the handle, no. But I for one would never want to discourage someone from modding a knife by telling them that it isn't necessary.

I still have the first knife I ever modded. It's a small lock back folder and I was maybe 12. The knife had white micarta handles and the brass pins were leeching green corrosion into the micarta. I didn't like how it looked so I replaced the handles with black textured plastic. And today, decades later, I design and build one of a kind switchblades like the one pictured below. It all started with changing the handles on that little folder. I'm glad I didn't let anyone discourage me by telling me it wasn't necessary to change the handles, that they were fine the way they were.

If a person has an interest in modding a knife, and if they have the ability to do so without ruining it, then I say more power to them, even if the knife doesn't really need to be modified. Who knows where it might lead.

 

[slight]

We hobbyists are plagued by too much info these days...So we hypothesize potential problems that may not even be possible.

This is quite possibly the most truthful statement I have ever heard on a knife forum.

I don't think it would worry about it. But I know that if I was worried about it, I would keep messing with it until I got my answers or I broke the knife.

Since this knife is a keeper I say why not take the handle off? Killgar's method looks solid to me. You might decide to put a different handle on someday as a fun project.

This is from the WD-40 FAQ: "It is safe to use on metal, rubber, wood and plastic. It can also be applied to painted metal surfaces without harming the paint. Polycarbonate and clear polystyrene plastic are among the few surfaces on which to avoid using a petroleum-based product like WD-40® Multi-Use Product." -http://wd40.com/faqs

And this is from the Wikipedia page (so this information may not be correct) on Kraton: "Kraton polymers are styrenic block copolymer (SBC) consisting of polystyrene blocks and rubber blocks. The rubber blocks consist of polybutadiene, polyisoprene or their hydrogenated equivalents."-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraton_(polymer)

And here is a thread from 2006 that has some relevancy. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/436912-kraton-disintegration-decay

So... I don't know. It seems like WD-40 could damage Kraton. I think I would ask Cold Steel, or another company that uses Kraton a lot, for a definitive answer.

 

[Jamesh Bond]

To me, this topic goes beyond rust. The way I see it, every knife mod a person performs increases their experience, and that might inspire them and give them confidence to perform other mods. If James is able to remove the handle of his knife without damaging it, perhaps at some point he will decide to try his hand at making his own custom handle.

I don't know if James has any interest in future knife modding, or ever making his own handles, but if he does, everyone has to start somewhere. The fact that he put a patina on his blade leads me to believe that he might have an interest in knife modding. Does James NEED to remove the handle, no. But I for one would never want to discourage someone from modding a knife by telling them that it isn't necessary.

I still have the first knife I ever modded. It's a small lock back folder and I was maybe 12. The knife had white micarta handles and the brass pins were leeching green corrosion into the micarta. I didn't like how it looked so I replaced the handles with black textured plastic. And today, decades later, I design and build one of a kind switchblades like the one pictured below. It all started with changing the handles on that little folder. I'm glad I didn't let anyone discourage me by telling me it wasn't necessary to change the handles, that they were fine the way they were.

If a person has an interest in modding a knife, and if they have the ability to do so without ruining it, then I say more power to them, even if the knife doesn't really need to be modified. Who knows where it might lead.

You are correct on all counts. Ive done some simple mods to some of my knives, and am interested in one day making my own. Time and cost is a factor.

I decided long ago this knife would ultimately be re-handled. I've been procrastinating while I sort my options and learn how. This knife is also very sentimental, so I might have someone else do it to be safe. Or maybe not.

The occurrence of the rust pressured another look at my options.

Thanks.

 

[Jamesh Bond]

This is quite possibly the most truthful statement I have ever heard on a knife forum.

I don't think it would worry about it. But I know that if I was worried about it, I would keep messing with it until I got my answers or I broke the knife.

Since this knife is a keeper I say why not take the handle off? Killgar's method looks solid to me. You might decide to put a different handle on someday as a fun project.

This is from the WD-40 FAQ: "It is safe to use on metal, rubber, wood and plastic. It can also be applied to painted metal surfaces without harming the paint. Polycarbonate and clear polystyrene plastic are among the few surfaces on which to avoid using a petroleum-based product like WD-40® Multi-Use Product." -http://wd40.com/faqs

And this is from the Wikipedia page (so this information may not be correct) on Kraton: "Kraton polymers are styrenic block copolymer (SBC) consisting of polystyrene blocks and rubber blocks. The rubber blocks consist of polybutadiene, polyisoprene or their hydrogenated equivalents."-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraton_(polymer)

And here is a thread from 2006 that has some relevancy. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/436912-kraton-disintegration-decay

So... I don't know. It seems like WD-40 could damage Kraton. I think I would ask Cold Steel, or another company that uses Kraton a lot, for a definitive answer.

Thx. Feel free to quote me lol!

I read those same sources you did, and reached the same conclusion. Ironically, I had originally typed this up in the Cold Steel forum, but decided to post here. I've never had a response from CS before via email, but I might ask the Kraton/WD-40 question in the subforum and see if their rep can help.

Killgar's method is indeed the most likely route I intend to take.

Thank you!

 

[Jamesh Bond]

Just had a thought.

Ive already looked around all over for handle tutorials in the past, and didn't find exactly what I want, but I learned the gist. I've made basic inquiries here, and in the Knifemakers subforum. And did the YouTube/Google thing.

Since we are here tho, I'll ask everyone's thoughts.

I envision a one piece black micarta or G10 handle shaped like the existing Kraton one, including the small guard, but slightly more oval in cross section and thinner. Kinda like the Survive! GSO handles.

I MIGHT consider wood if I could get the color and durability of those synthetics. It would definitely make the process easier.

Either way, I'm not sure whether to use one solid piece, and drill for the tang, or to sandwich multiple slabs together. Both are beyond my skill and experience. Plus, by the time I purchase materials, plus the proper tools to do it, I wonder if the cost would equal what a professional would charge, anyway.

Any advice on which method might be best for a guy with limited tools?

Tutorials?

Service providers?

I'll keep doing my own research as well, but anything new I could learn would be most beneficial.

Much obliged.