S110v and whetstones

[Hyker86]

so here is my dilemma... I am pretty new to sharpening by hand, but have been tinkering for a few weeks. Every knife in my house aside from the butter knives can be used for shaving. There is one knife that is still factory sharp, but I want to prepare for working it. The steel is s110v and my understanding is the whetstones I have likely won’t sharpen the vanadium carbides due to their extreme hardness. So here is my question... could I sharpen the knives on the stones that I have and then just polish with an extra or extra extra fine diamond plate to sharpen the vanadium?

I read in other threads you could sharpen s110v on your regular stones but you will never shape the vanadium carbides, so wouldn’t it make sense to just finish off with the diamond plate?

Also, I bought a dmt diamond plate set... not a fan. It’s the duosharp played that have the continuous surface. I get progressively sharper with every plate and then the extra fine seems to be dull the edge. It’s driving me nuts! I’m going to return the set so any advice on a replacement plate set would be great.

Thanks for any advice!

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

You can sharpen up to approximately ANSI 400 grit on synthetic sharpening stones without issue. Above that range and you'll want to use diamond.

Depending on how much of a push-cutting vs. slicing edge you want, you may not even need to use diamonds at all. Honestly, a knife made of S110V is probably going to be intended for work more towards the slicing end of the spectrum anyhow.

 

[Hyker86]

Thanks for the quick response-

Sounds like I’m on the right track with looking at sharpening with the whetstone then finishing with a diamond plate.
Is there a diamond plate you would recommend? The dmt extra fine I have is driving me nuts. Tried several knives on it and it makes them all duller. Even busted out angle guides, slowed down my strokes and so on...

 

[Hyker86]

You can sharpen up to approximately ANSI 400 grit on synthetic sharpening stones without issue. Above that range and you'll want to use diamond.

Depending on how much of a push-cutting vs. slicing edge you want, you may not even need to use diamonds at all. Honestly, a knife made of S110V is probably going to be intended for work more towards the slicing end of the spectrum anyhow.

Thanks for the quick response-

Sounds like I’m on the right track with looking at sharpening with the whetstone then finishing with a diamond plate.
Is there a diamond plate you would recommend? The dmt extra fine I have is driving me nuts. Tried several knives on it and it makes them all duller. Even busted out angle guides, slowed down my strokes and so on...

 

[Wowbagger]

I read in other threads you could sharpen s110v on your regular stones but you will never shape the vanadium carbides, so wouldn’t it make sense to just finish off with the diamond plate?

Yes.
. . . buuuuuuuut
depends on your wet stones. Silicon Carbide are good ones to do the bulk of the work on.
I use Shapton Glass on S110V. I should say . . . I have used Shapton Glass on S110V.
Now I go all diamonds from start to finish.

Also, I bought a dmt diamond plate set... not a fan.

Agreed. I hate using diamond stones. Mostly because they are scratchy compared to WATER STONES which are my preference for steel they work well with.

I get progressively sharper with every plate and then the extra fine seems to be dull the edge. It’s driving me nuts! I’m going to return the set so any advice on a replacement plate set would be great.

The "secret" of getting the last stone to produce a hair whittling edge is to put it in a guided sharpener. Or better said use a guided sharpener with diamond stones in it.

I use DMT Aligner stones in my Edge Pro Apex.
I go as fine as 8,000 (the pink colored backing plate) and I get pretty close to a polished edge and just really impressive hair whittling results.
It is a PITA to use the Aligner stones on the Edge Pro; I double back tape them to a blank backing plate. I don't have many S110V knifes (three) and I don't need to sharpen them much.


Once that's done just a hand held touch up with the 8,000 plate often to bring the edge from sorta shave sharp back to hair whittling. This works pretty well for me . . . so I'm not spending bucks on new diamond stones at this time.

 

[Hyker86]

Yes.
. . . buuuuuuuut
depends on your wet stones. Silicon Carbide are good ones to do the bulk of the work on.
I use Shapton Glass on S110V. I should say . . . I have used Shapton Glass on S110V.
Now I go all diamonds from start to finish.


Agreed. I hate using diamond stones. Mostly because they are scratchy compared to WATER STONES which are my preference for steel they work well with.



The "secret" of getting the last stone to produce a hair whittling edge is to put it in a guided sharpener. Or better said use a guided sharpener with diamond stones in it.

I use DMT Aligner stones in my Edge Pro Apex.
I go as fine as 8,000 (the pink colored backing plate) and I get pretty close to a polished edge and just really impressive hair whittling results.
It is a PITA to use the Aligner stones on the Edge Pro; I double back tape them to a blank backing plate. I don't have many S110V knifes (three) and I don't need to sharpen them much.
View attachment 967733

Once that's done just a hand held touch up with the 8,000 plate often to bring the edge from sorta shave sharp back to hair whittling. This works pretty well for me . . . so I'm not spending bucks on new diamond stones at this time.
View attachment 967734
View attachment 967735

Thanks wowbagger- some great information for building my set up. Which edgepro model did you go for? Is it worth the initial investment cost?

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

You may find this an interesting read: CLICK

 

[Hyker86]

You may find this an interesting read: CLICK

Interesting article- that’s exactly what I found to be the case with my set of dmt plates. I really liked the course and the article shows that that is the only one making an even apex. Might have to hang on to that one for quickly moving steel on a worn out blade

 

[Wowbagger]

Which edgepro model did you go for?

I bought the Edge Pro Apex 4 then added some coarser stones (a 120 and a 220).
The Shapton Glass 4,000 that came with the Edge Pro is enough to produce near mirror edges (if you don't look too close) and it sharpens edges as easily hair whittling as I could ever want period ! ! ! !
I mean they could get more mirror like with finer stones. But much sharper ? That's debatable.

Is it worth the initial investment cost?

Helllllllllll YES !
I paid like $250. I mean . . . that's the price of a decent knife. I don't consider it expensive.
I have twice that or more in large Shapton Pro stones.

The Edge Pro is not all marble and metal like the Wicked Edge so it doesn't look like it would produce as good of edges but I looked at WE at the time and if I had been impressed I probably would have popped for the WE. In my view the WE is not as versatile and as a side benefit the Edge Pro is much more portable and easier to stow away . . . very light weight.
I want the WE to be better, I want one but two things : it isn't . . . and secondly the Edge Pro very easily helps me to produce edges as good as I could ever dream of.

The WE can produce more symmetrical looking bevels but the rest of it just isn't there in ease of use, fine detail and versatility.

The Edge Pro isn't for everyone . . . for reasons that escape me . . . but definitely worth a try to find out if it is helpful to you.

 

[Blues]

I believe I read that Science of Sharp article previously but it's no less disturbing reading it (again) this evening.

I wonder whether bonded diamond hones provide (substantially) better results?

What are the alternative strategies?

 

[Wowbagger]

Update : The suppliers of the Shapton Glass Edge Pro set (just google that) . . . well they don't seem to offer the set I have. What they do offer is $339, and it has more stones and other stuff my set didn't have. Oh well, sorry, things change. It has been about three years since I got mine.

You could always get their most basic angle adjustable set and add some Shapton Glass or diamond stones (or both) to it.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

(...)
Also, I bought a dmt diamond plate set... not a fan. It’s the duosharp played that have the continuous surface. I get progressively sharper with every plate and then the extra fine seems to be dull the edge. It’s driving me nuts! I’m going to return the set so any advice on a replacement plate set would be great.

Thanks for any advice!

It may just be the edge isn't taken quite far enough (thin enough, to a full apex) before switching to the EF. Usually when the sharpness falls away like that in the progression, in going to a finer stone, it's because the edge wasn't quite thin enough (refined enough) before making that switch in progression. At coarser grit, even an edge that's not quite fully apexed can still do many of the tasks expected of a coarse edge, like cutting paper to some degree, or cutting cardboard. A lot of that happens due to the coarseness of the edge, and not as much due to the thinness of the apex. So it looks 'sharp' in those tasks, but will fall short in doing some of the other sharpness tests, like shaving, etc. At finer finish, it becomes more important to make sure the apex is fully thinned out, as far as it can be.

Also, as you go finer in the progression, it's important to scale down the pressure used, as you progress. The presumption is that the edge keeps getting thinner and thinner through the progression. As it thins, it becomes more delicate. Assuming that, it becomes much easier to damage the thin, delicate edge if the pressure isn't lightened up as well. So, if pressure's too heavy in the EF stage, the edge will likely just be crushed or ground away as it starts to thin out. The bevels will still get finer in finish, but the 'teeth' of the coarser edge will go away and won't be able to sustain the cutting performance seen at coarser grit. So the edge effectively becomes 'duller' as the teeth go away and the fine, thin edge is ground off due to the pressure.

Keep checking sharpness as you go (paper slicing, etc), and more frequently as you go finer. You need to keep watching to make sure the edge is still improving with each pass or two on the hone. So, if you notice sharpness suddenly stops improving, or if it degrades, then STOP what you're doing immediately and figure out what happened. The safe bet at that point is to backtrack a little bit on the stones to restore sharpness, then make an adjustment lower in pressure before continuing beyond that point.

 

[Hyker86]

It may just be the edge isn't taken quite far enough (thin enough, to a full apex) before switching to the EF. Usually when the sharpness falls away like that in the progression, in going to a finer stone, it's because the edge wasn't quite thin enough (refined enough) before making that switch in progression. At coarser grit, even an edge that's not quite fully apexed can still do many of the tasks expected of a coarse edge, like cutting paper to some degree, or cutting cardboard. A lot of that happens due to the coarseness of the edge, and not as much due to the thinness of the apex. So it looks 'sharp' in those tasks, but will fall short in doing some of the other sharpness tests, like shaving, etc. At finer finish, it becomes more important to make sure the apex is fully thinned out, as far as it can be.

Also, as you go finer in the progression, it's important to scale down the pressure used, as you progress. The presumption is that the edge keeps getting thinner and thinner through the progression. As it thins, it becomes more delicate. Assuming that, it becomes much easier to damage the thin, delicate edge if the pressure isn't lightened up as well. So, if pressure's too heavy in the EF stage, the edge will likely just be crushed or ground away as it starts to thin out. The bevels will still get finer in finish, but the 'teeth' of the coarser edge will go away and won't be able to sustain the cutting performance seen at coarser grit. So the edge effectively becomes 'duller' as the teeth go away and the fine, thin edge is ground off due to the pressure.

Keep checking sharpness as you go (paper slicing, etc), and more frequently as you go finer. You need to keep watching to make sure the edge is still improving with each pass or two on the hone. So, if you notice sharpness suddenly stops improving, or if it degrades, then STOP what you're doing immediately and figure out what happened. The safe bet at that point is to backtrack a little bit on the stones to restore sharpness, then make an adjustment lower in pressure before continuing beyond that point.

Thanks for the tips! I do sometimes struggle getting a burr on the fine stones. I will make sure I built one prior to getting the extra fine to be sure I have apexed.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Your thinness should already be set on the coarse stones, really. The refinement is mostly smoothing the peaks and valleys out of that coarse edge finish. Fine stones also make the job of making the apex crisp, without any micro-misalignments (rolls, burrs) easier, but it's less about actual thinness at that point and more about "virtual thinness", as misalignments cause an edge to act like it's thicker/duller.

 

[Hyker86]

Your thinness should already be set on the coarse stones, really. The refinement is mostly smoothing the peaks and valleys out of that coarse edge finish. Fine stones also make the job of making the apex crisp, without any micro-misalignments (rolls, burrs) easier, but it's less about actual thinness at that point and more about "virtual thinness", as misalignments cause an edge to act like it's thicker/duller.

Ah well this brings me back to my initial issue where I am raising a good burr and then filling out in the fine diamond plates. I will give it a few more goes with varying pressure and if it doesn’t resolve then I will chalk it up to the issues laid out in the article and send them plates back

 

[samuraistuart]

"I get progressively sharper with every plate and then the extra fine seems to be dull the edge" This is a very valid observation. One that I see EVERY time I use the EF DiaSharp plate (1200 mesh). It has gotten to the point that I no longer use that stone in my diamond sharpening rotation. I HATE it. I had these issues with a new stone, sent it back to DMT. They kindly replaced it, but the problem persists. It really does seem to make the edge feel "duller" than the 600 mesh Fine plate (I always check with my fingertips). I am using the Razor edge systems guides, the angles are exact and constant through the progression. The Atoma EF stone 1200 mesh is way better. A really killer edge is to just skip the 1200, if you have the EEF 8000 mesh plate, go to that right after the Fine 600 mesh. Fabulous edge. There are a lot of comments concerning the odd behavior of DMTs 1200 plates. Many have noticed that it seems there are larger diamond particles than should be scattered in that stone.

 

[Hyker86]

"I get progressively sharper with every plate and then the extra fine seems to be dull the edge" This is a very valid observation. One that I see EVERY time I use the EF DiaSharp plate (1200 mesh). It has gotten to the point that I no longer use that stone in my diamond sharpening rotation. I HATE it. I had these issues with a new stone, sent it back to DMT. They kindly replaced it, but the problem persists. It really does seem to make the edge feel "duller" than the 600 mesh Fine plate (I always check with my fingertips). I am using the Razor edge systems guides, the angles are exact and constant through the progression. The Atoma EF stone 1200 mesh is way better. A really killer edge is to just skip the 1200, if you have the EEF 8000 mesh plate, go to that right after the Fine 600 mesh. Fabulous edge. There are a lot of comments concerning the odd behavior of DMTs 1200 plates. Many have noticed that it seems there are larger diamond particles than should be scattered in that stone.

Interesting... are the atoma stone of better quality? I definitely need to at least exchange the ones I have. The course has a raised spot on one edge that you cant grind past and the extra fine has divots and rub marks (?) on it.

 

[Blues]

Interesting... are the atoma stone of better quality? I definitely need to at least exchange the ones I have. The course has a raised spot on one edge that you cant grind past and the extra fine has divots and rub marks (?) on it.

FWIW, Jason B. recommended the DMTs over Atoma for sharpening. The Atomas over DMT for lapping and flattening water stones. I think you may find that respected opinions may differ in this arena and it will come down to one's own experience or which expert they choose to ally themselves with.

 

[Alberta Ed]

I hone my Military in S110V on a DMT ultra-coarse (220 grit -- continuous surface)) and finish on a DMT red (the holy one -- 600 grit). It takes only a few light strokes and produces a very aggressive edge.

 

[Blues]

I hone my Military in S110V on a DMT ultra-coarse (220 grit -- continuous surface)) and finish on a DMT red (the holy one -- 600 grit). It takes only a few light strokes and produces a very aggressive edge.

No issues catching the tip on the 600, Ed?