S30v empressions

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I have been using a s30v blade for only two weeks. My first empression of it is a little different than what I have seen posted about it. I have been cutting every thing I can get my hands on and think if you get a knife with this steel you are going to be very happy. I will leave the scientific testing to the experts, however I think most will find that after they use s30v they will feel the same as I do about it.

SHARPENING
I find that it is not difficult to sharpen at all. I have reground the edge bevel with a diamond and a silica carbide hone and found them to work very well. I have finished the edge with ceramic 600 and 1200 grit and it resulted in a fantastic edge. As for just touching up an edge it is fast and easy. I used a Chicago Cutlery ceramic sharpening steel and a F-Dick smooth steel. I am very impressed with how quick and easy it is to get back a razor sharp edge.

EDGE HOLDING
This is where s30v really shines. It is my opinion that it will out cut 420v. At the least it will stay right with it and for most you will be as happy with it as I am. I have cut up every thing I can get my hands on and have not dulled the edge to the point that it has needed a real good sharpening. It just has kept cutting and cutting. On mine at RC 61 I have had no rolling of the edge and no damage yet at an edge angle (Lanskey lowest angle), witch on this knife is roughly about 15 degrees.

COROSION
This is difficult for me to judge because I really don’t have a problem with even my tool steel, Wisconsin dry air in winter. However I have been careless with this and have cut up fruit, meat, and have let it sit out wet and have not seen any beginning signs of rust at all. It seems to be a good stainless.

Is s30v good steel? No. In my limited time with it I think it is GREAT steel. At the least no one will be disappointed with a knife made from it. I think 420v better watch out there is a new kid on the block and he has a great left hook. If you want a great stainless steel s30v looks like it is it. I have always been a big carbine steel fan and I have to say s30v really has my attention.
Any questions? Let me know.
 
It sounds like this steel is really taking off. I am very curious
about the edge holding compared to S90V (420V). According to Sal,
S90V is about 25% better than S30V. Where did you get your CPM420V
knife and what Rockwell is it? Was it heat treated by Paul Bos? I
am far behind in becoming a Steel Snob, I just received some S90V
and I don't know what hardness to have Paul Bos treat it. I think
about HRC 59-60. S30V is sounding like great stuff, That will be
next.
 
I am interseted in hearing what the hardness is as well. I know the sample Spyderco tested was 60Rc and in my limited experience I would have no problem running it at 61 in utility knives. I still doubt 1 point of hardness will make a whole bunch of difference in wear resistance. It is impressive steel and will replace 154 and ATS for me.
 
I believe my 420v is rc 58, it is one of the first Arclites of DDR' . The s30v is at 61 RC.
 
Originally posted by Don Powell
I just received some S90V and I don't know what hardness to have Paul Bos treat it.
Click to expand...

One maker told me that because of California environmental regulations, Paul Bos is limited as to the quench methods he can use (no oil, no salt, ostensibly because they create undesirable vapors/fumes:rolleyes: ). I think this means that Bos can only rapid air or Argon (gas) quench. I think Bos uses Argon to keep surface oxidation levels (scale) to a minimum.

This appears to be a limitation when it comes to S90V. The rapidity with which Paul can quench makes his max hardness target for S90V right at Rc 57.

That implies that Rc58 is by fortune, not plan.

[edit: I should have said "That implies that Rc58 on S90V from Paul Bos is by fortune, not plan." However, see below... I'll try to resolve.]
 
Thanks db,
I know at first S90V was supposed to not be hardened more than
58-59, but Phil Wilson started to push it more and more and
now he is up to HRc 62, I think. I would think that a difference
of 58 vs 60 is quite noticeable. Could it be 25%? One would think
not. More Vanadium, more abrasion resistance would be the best
quess.
 
I believe that 25% better abrasion resistance Sal Gesser mentioned was achived under controlled conditions by a machine. Show me someone who does perfect cuts in a soft media 100% of the time. I don't. The 25% more may amount to nothing if the softer (and still more brittle) s90v blade's edge chips or rolls, even on a microscopic level. Abrasion resistance != edge holding when it comes to practical applications...
 
Originally posted by db
I think 420v better watch out there is a new kid on the block and he has a great left hook. If you want a great stainless steel s30v looks like it is it.
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting some reviews of S30V in use!

I would suggest that 440V/S60V is the steel that will really hear it's death knell from S30V. 420V/S90V has remained a steel used by those who go the extra distance to get the edge holding by putting up with the heat treat, with it's high austenizing temp and apparently more demanding quench routine.

440V has been something the production houses can manage to grind, heat treat, and finish. S30V probably won't be appreciably harder to grind, heat treat, and finish vs. 440V. But 420V may still be too much trouble for the production houses.

Technically, 420V obsoleted 440V. But the heat treat kept it from the production houses. Now, functionally, I suspect S30V will totally obviate the need for 440V with both production and custom makers. This switch shouldn't take more than 1 year, 2 years tops.

S30V gives you about the same edge holding as 440V, same corrosion resistance +/-, and much better toughness, so you can run the Rc up to 61+. Good stuff indeed.

420V/S90V still has it's spot (kind of like 3V and 10V and INFI have their spots)... the premier abrasion resistant stainless edge holder (arguably). Can be put to work on, say, a hunting knife for slicing at Rc61. Tradeoffs: toughness is just ok for stainless, difficulty in working, heat treating, finishing, and cost to purchase and produce.
 
Rdangerer glad to do it. And you may be right, however with my limited use of s30v for me it has out cut 420v/s90v. If you have had different results with s30v I can respect that. I also think DDR knows how and is willing to go the extra to heat treat 420v. He had also used 420v for some time before he had made my necker. I don't know the reason for s30v out cutting 420v and really don't care. All I know is so far I really like s30v, and think most will also. For a general every day knife.
 
Show me someone who does perfect cuts in a soft media 100% of the time. I don't.
Click to expand...

My point exactly. I find Spyderco's tests to be an excellent baseline to use when I am judging a steel. The media used in the tests is very consistant, unlike whittling on a 2X4 or cutting rope. Sure, it dont tell the whole story but gives a great starting point.
 
I like Mr. Mengel:p have been using a S30V blade for the last couple of weeks. In fact pretty much the same excact knife. A fixed blade drop point recurve with an apx 4" blade. Edge thickness measured at apx .025"(+ or-). RC at 61.

I'm not a technical expert so I'll just tell some of the things I did and some of my uneducated observations about S30V.

The first day I had the knife I cut up alot of cardboard. Sorry I didnt count the cuts. Edge still would shave arm hair easily. Next I did some chopping on some soft maple(this knife is not a chopper). No edge rolling or chipping. Next I went out side and found an oak limb apx 3" in diameter. Using a combination of chopping and slicing I got through it. No edge rolling or chipping. I then carved 4 stakes out of the oak. The knife wouldnt shave dry hair but would still cut very well. Since then I have used the knife for cutting aluminum cans, card board, food prep and a stray extension cord from a lamp.

Sharpening
After the first days cutting I was able to bring the edge back to hair shaving sharp with a fine diamond hone with little trouble. When I decided to reprofile the edge I used a lanks medium diamond hone and finished out the edge using the standard lansky stones. For me it was a easier to sharpen than my 420V and 440V blades. It takeas a very nice edge due to the fineness of the grain.

Toughness
I don't have much experience with 3v and A-2 but I had zero edge rolling or chipping doing things that had chipped my ATS-34 blades.

Edge Holding
Very good. Way better than ATS-34 but not quite what I have experience with a 420V blade at 58 RC in general cutting chores. Close though.

Corrosion
No corrosion at all on the blade with my providing zero care. The knife has gotten wet and was used to cut up some oranges and all I did was wipe the blade off on my pants.

General Thoughts
I like S30v alot. Is it wonder steel? Dunno, but it does everything well. I cant see ordering another knife in ATS-34. The slight price difference coming from it being harder to work than ATS will be worth it to me to have a great all around steel.
 
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid28/pc9f5f2bdfb05a8b21303467a3cfb4865/fe0450d4.jpg
I showed this to Samhell, and he thought it should be in this thread. It is a little cardboard that I had cut up yesterday. The S30V wasn’t shaving sharp, but it still was cutting with eas. Today, I cut up 3 different kinds of rope each .5 inches thick and about 10 feet long. Then I whittled on a 2x4. Still the knife was cutting well. Diced up some PVC pipe and some rubber hose. All without any sharpening. I may touch up the edge tomorrow depending on what else I find to cut. Who knows but it still is cutting well.
 
Originally posted by rdangerer


One maker told me that because of California environmental regulations, Paul Bos is limited as to the quench methods he can use (no oil, no salt, ostensibly because they create undesirable vapors/fumes:rolleyes: ). I think this means that Bos can only rapid air or Argon (gas) quench. I think Bos uses Argon to keep surface oxidation levels (scale) to a minimum.

This appears to be a limitation when it comes to S90V. The rapidity with which Paul can quench makes his max hardness target for S90V right at Rc 57.

That implies that Rc58 is by fortune, not plan.
Click to expand...

The California regulations are true, but the suggestion that Paul is unable to harden S90V (CPM420V) above Rc57 is simply incorrect. S90V is no different than S30V or CPM-3V is its need for rapid quench. I have my smaller CPM-3V blades tempered to Rc61, and the S30V blades he recently did for me were at Rc60.
 
Hmmm... conflicting reports ... dern it. :confused:

Sorry gang.

I certainly don't intend to spread misinformation.
I'll let the post stand unedited but with Jerry's reply.

I'll see if I can sort this out and will post corrective info if I can resolve.
 
Originally posted by db
And you may be right, however with my limited use of s30v for me it has out cut 420v/s90v.
Click to expand...

Oh, hey, no dispute. I think you may have misinterpreted my comments.

There could be hardness differences that make for that result.

I suspect that when Sal Glesser reports that S90V outcut S30V by 25%, that his Catra test machine results are using test blades (mules) that are at the same Rockwell Hardness level. If not I think he'd state as much. That's the beauty of the Catra... controlled, repeatable testing with quantitative results on nearly identical test blades in nearly identical test mediums.

My point was only that S90V/420V still has a place where it excels, where it has a reasonable claim for it's niche and it's use. Maybe S60V does also still, but I can't see it ... and so I think S60V/440V is now truly and fully technically obsoleted by the introduction of S30V. We'll see.

Originally posted by db

If you have had different results with s30v I can respect that.
Click to expand...

That's just it ... I don't ... yet.

I should have identical blades in S90V and S30V in a few weeks. I'll try to make time to do some cutting tests under some level of control/repeatability. They are likely at different Rc levels though. More later.

Originally posted by db
All I know is so far I really like s30v, and think most will also. For a general every day knife.
Click to expand...

Agreed ... absolutely.
 
I might well be wrong. As I check the Crucible book, I notice that the preferred target hardness for S90V is Rc56-59, so Rc 57/58 might well be what Paul aimed for. Sorry, rdangerer. I made one of those "ass-u-me" errors. I've emailed Paul for a clarification.

On the testing stage, I think it is not necessarily fair to test blade steels at a single, common hardness. They were not really designed that way. If you credit S90V with certain wear resistance at Rc60, you have to consider that might be above the range at which it should be tempered for controlling brittleness. Likewise, S30V might be best used at another hardness. It would seem to me that testing should be at the hardness for each steel that is best suited for all its needed properties, not just edge holding.
 
Seems it's time for me to jump into this thread.

I made the 2 knives that Bill and James are testing. I was very conscious of grinding and sharpening them the same way, and the heat treating.

I asked them to do the common things that customers do with a knife, and to keep track of how long before it needed resharpening, how easy or hard it was to resharpen, rust resistance, and to pull no punches. Distructive testing was not part of the plan since any one of us can destroy a knife.

For years I have had customers do this kind of testing for every new steel that I might use. IMHO, if you send a customer a knife that he paid dearly for and ask him to test it for you, the results will be completely different than one you send to him to use and abuse that didn't cost him. There is no time limit, and no, I don't give them the knife. When the testing is complete they can send it back to me for refurbishing and then if they still want it, I'll sell it to them.

Is S30V better than other stainless steels? Time will tell, but for me, it has proven to be another steel that I will offer. Is it the wonder steel? Nope. Let the steel companies keep looking for it.:)

While I'm here let me give you my thoughts from the knifemaker point of view.

The mill surface finish is very clean like all the CPM steels. It bandsawed about like D2 and surface ground cleanly. I ground the blades on a 10" wheel with a 3M 967 60 grit, 3M 707 220 grit, and a Klingspor LS312 400 grit. I grind slow on a variable speed grinder. One of them was beadblasted with ceramic bead and the other was hand rubbed to a 400 grit satin. Heat treat was pretty much what Crucible recommended. I used 1" aluminum quench plates for one and a magnetic chuck and a 1" steel plate for the other. Both blades Rockwelled the same.

I guess this is where I should say - "Your results may vary" :)
 
Naw Kit you didn’t kill it. I am just absorbing your post. That and trying to find a magnetic chuck. All the Chucks I know are repulsive.
 
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