S30V or 440V

gull wing

gull wing

Joined
May 4, 2002
Messages
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Ordered a Military with a S30V blade. Was sent a 440V blade.
Should I send it back for a S30V? Is the 440V steel really very hard to sharpen with the Sharpmaker? Are there more advantages to having a S30V blade? Should I keep it?
 
As I was looking for my Military, I read a lot of reviews that said the S30V was the new steel for the knife, so thats what I went with. I also read that the 440V was about the same, but harder, I think. I dont sound like a bunch of help, but try a search in the forum and see what you come up with.

Garrett

Oh and if I ordered an S30V and got the 440V, I would call them and send it back so you get what you paid for. Just a pet peeve of mine.

G
 
From the "principle of the thing" point of view, you should send it back and get what you ordered.

From the user point of view, I have a 440V Millie and a S30V Native, and although out of the box Native was MUCH sharper, while using it I can't tell the difference. If with say 440V and G2 you can feel the difference easily, S30V and S60V feel the same to me.

So, if I had to decide, I'd examine the knife. If the finish is great, lockup is perfect and there is no blade play whatsoever, I'd stick with what you have. But if there's anything at all that's not absolutely flawlessly perfect, then sure, exchange it for the S30V.

And now that I think about it, there's also the question of prestige, having the newest version that exists. That definitely warrants the exchange...

Yeah, after all the rambling I guess I would call and exchange it... :D
 
Originally posted by Sal Glesser
Of the steels that you mentioned and the testing that we have done, in edge retention (best first); 420V, S30V, 440V, VG-10, M-2.

We've only tested a few M2 pieces (knives, not Spyderco made mules), so they may not be indicitive of the material, but this was in our testing.

Very few, if any production companies are using CPM-420V (S90V) in production. We are using 440V (S60V), S30V and VG-10. The only company currently using M-2, that I am aware of, is Benchmade.

sal
Click to expand...

What Sal doesn't mention is at what hardness they tested the above steels.

A "mule" is a test blade. I.e., they make identically sized and ground test blades so that edge grind geometry doesn't skew the results between steels.

Sal / Spyderco uses a CATRA machine to do reproducible edge retention testing. I.e., a consistent contraption that allows a repeatable set of tests to be conducted. The CATRA machine testing medium has some silica (sand-like, see http://www.qpa.org/pro_sil.htm ) particles embedded in the test paper strips, so it'll dull down the blade pretty well and generate a dulling curve.


from http://www.catra.org/products/CATRATESTEQP.htm

Testing Method
The principle of the test is simple. The blade is mounted in a position with the edge vertical and a pack of specially developed synthetic paper is lowered on to it. By oscillating the blade back and forth the blade cuts into the paper, the depth of the cut being the measurement of sharpness. The test media is loaded with 5% silica, which has a mild wearing effect on the blade edge. By repeating the back and forth motion, the further cuts are made, which wears the cutting edge. The measurement of cut depth at each subsequent stroke can then be plotted to produce a wear curve for each blade tested. The test produces two indications:

ICP (Initial Cutting Performance) representing the cutting ability (sharpness) of the blade as supplied
TCC (Total Card Cut) which represents the life of the blade by giving a measure of its total cutting ability
Click to expand...
Spyderco typically runs 440V quite a bit softer (Rc55-56, or Rc56-57) than they probably have to run S30V. Why? 440V is more brittle than S30V at any given (knife range) hardness level. Softer steel means the 440V edges will roll more easily than those with harder S30V (I do need to find out how hard Spyderco is running S30V however ... I'm ASSuming they are hitting Rc58-60 range). Edge rolling is what most people encounter during normal, day-to-day knife use. If you cut up a bunch of dirty carpet, carboard, or abrasive rope, those kinds of things will dull via a truly abrasive mechanism.

440V and S30V should both be similarly corrosion resistant... close enough so as not to favor one over the other in this regard.

I think the Catra tests probably lean in the "Abrasive" wear direction vs. being a direct indication of edge rolling type dulling. So in practice, to the extent that S30V is run harder than CPM 440V (also called S60V), I'd suggest that S30V should provide the average user, doing a wide range of average tasks, a more performant blade.

They will both be hard to sharpen with conventional stones, but not with diamond stones... by diamond stones and never look back.

So, if it were me, I'd definitely send the 440V back and wait for my S30V Military.

( [sidebar]: M2 is very tricky to heat treat, which may be part of the reason Spyderco didn't use mules, just someone else's blade, probably Benchmade's (a guess). If they had made an M2 mule, it probably would have performed right between S30V and 420V (90V)... an educated guess based on carbide content of all three steels. )
 
Unless you've got a very good knowledge of sharpening, I'd go with the S30V. 440V is great stuff, but tricky to work with.
 
You can say that again, Dann.
I ruined my Starmate from shaving sharp one one side to scraping hair.
 
Unless you have an Edge Pro or a belt sander, 440V is very tough to sharpen without a lot of patience and experience. I would send it back for the S30V, especially since that is what you ordered.
 
I have had no problems keeping 440V sharp but its does seem like the S30V holds a edge much longer.
 
Hi GullWing. Of the Military's that I normally carry; one is 440V (S60V), one is S30V and one is CV-20 (20-CV). They all perform well, I don't grab one over another because of the steel type.

Once you get into the "exotics", they are all good steels. As mentioned, it's more a case of what YOU want. Todays's new steel is tomorrow's old steel.

"All good, just different".

Hi Rob, thanx for the explanation of the CATRA.

On the M2, we just didn't have any M-2 available in ghouse at the time. We did use a production blade from another company.

We just received some M-2 from Crucible. As soon as our prototype maker gets a few minutes, we'll make some mules. Part of the reason for a mule is to try different hardnesses and different edge angles for comparison.

sal
 
Hi Carlos. We've used A-2 a lot in protos. We are moving away from A-2, even for protos because of very poor corrosion resistance.

sal
 
As far as corrosian resistant, I would rate from experiance from best down
1. RW Clark M1 S30V by P.Boss
1. Microtech LCC S30V
2. Kershaw Avalanche with 440V
3. Endura VG10

Base this on cutting mangoes and pineapples. These fruits are very acidic and you can see the steels staining as soon as the second cut to peel it.
 
Really it just depends on what you want, reguardless of what you hear or read in everday use you won't be able to tell the difference in cutting ability.
I've never found that the 440V egde when maintained properly is hard to sharpen at all, just a few quick strokes every week or so keeps mine cutting like a laser.
I like a toothy edge on all my PE knives anyway and the grain structure of the 440V works great for that.

When you get into the Rc hardness area that these steels run at you need a diamond hone to maintain them anyway. Ron
 
I really can't complain about keeping ANY steel I own sharp, since I use diamond stones. That doesn't mean REPROFILING isn't a good bit of scrubbing and flexing ... but general resharpening is not anything to even complain about. I kinda enjoy it actually.

Diamonds work fine on 440V, D2, S30V, S90V... but I do notice that 420V/S90V is the hardest to sharpen, for sure... and it's at Rc59. Just gotta keep scrubbing away. M2 at Rc60-62 (Benchmade) is no problem with diamonds.

I suppose if I had any blades of 420V/S90V or other tool steels up past Rc62, I'd notice more difficulty with manual means (i.e. by hand, not aided by machine).

Now, I don't own any Vascowear/Cruwear blades... ;) or I might be singing another tune.
 
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