Sage 1 + Sharpmaker = Frustration

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mels95yj

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Sep 4, 2013
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As a gift for myself for finishing a big project at work, I bought a Spyderco Sage 1. This is my first knife with S30v. I've used the Sharpmaker on my other knives without issue. I can get a pretty good edge that will shave my arm. So, I figured I'd "improve" the factory edge on the Sage when it came in. It will not shave my arm and actually feels duller than factory. When cutting paper, it usually starts cutting and ends up ripping some. I've researched all day. Here's what I've done:

Cleaned the ceramic rods multiple times
Used sharpie on edge. Clears shoulder on 30 degree back bevel and all on 40 degree.
Tonight I used between 150-200 strokes per side per step
I went slow to ensure I was keeping it vertical as much as I could.

What am I doing wrong? I am so frustrated to have this knife and it not be as sharp as my cheaper knives. It's like having a Coevette that doesn't run in your driveway. I'm thinking instead of getting the diamond and UF rods as most recommend, just use that money to get the Edge Pro.

Any suggestions will be highly appreciated!
 
S30V isn't a problem with the sharpmaker at all; it cuts it at a reasonable speed.

I have a funny feeling you're not reaching the apex of the edge all the way. Or perhaps you have a large burr remaining on the edge. Here's one way to go about this:

Start by intentionally dulling the blade by cutting straight into a sharpmaker rod at 90 degrees; like you were trying to cut through the rod. Do 2 to 4 strokes this way with just the weight of the blade. That should remove a little bit of metal from the edge and dull it nicely. Now, verify that you can see how dull it is by using the reflected light technique. Quoting myself from The Seven Secrets Of Sharpening:

"This same technique can be used straight down on the cutting edge. Hold the blade with the edge facing the ceiling. Have the handle pointed at your chest and the point facing straight out away from you. Look straight down at the cutting edge. Now, move the point slowly down towards the floor, and then up towards the ceiling. With a truly sharp blade, you won’t see anything because the cutting edge is too narrow to reliably reflect light. But a blade with any dull spots, nicks, or other problems, will reflect light. These bright spots on the edge are your key to finding where the edge is dull and needs work. I can’t overemphasize this technique enough. It’s like carrying around a microscope. Except all you need is light and your eyes. Try this!"

Make sure you can see the bright reflective line on the cutting edge. Now you know it's dull and you can tell when you make it sharp again. The reflective line will get narrower and narrower as you sharpen until it's eventually gone. Once the line is gone you should be very close to a sharp edge. Something like 20 alternating strokes on the gray stones should be enough to make it quite sharp.

Now what if you never get the line to disappear? It means you're not hitting the apex of the edge. So, either your angle control isn't great, or you're trying to use too small of an angle. If you aren't already, you should switch to the 40 degree slots on the sharpmaker. In fact, this whole exercise will be a lot faster if you just start with the 40s and sharpen until you get a nice sharp edge.

My Yojimbo 2 in S30V, straight off of the gray rods, will cross cut phonebook paper cleanly.

Good luck! Let us know how you do with this.

Brian.
 
Thanks Brian. I've dulled it, and I'm getting ready to start. Are you saying to skip the 30 degree all together? Are you saying to stick to the corner of the grey stones until it's sharp? Go to the flats and white stones after that or stop with the grey corners? Thanks again!
 
I think you are going to need to buy a 10x loupe to accurately do the Sharpie trick, otherwise it is easy to think you've removed all the Sharpie, when you really haven't. The usual advice is to just use the rod on one side only until you've raised a distinctive burr all along the blade and only then go to the other side and raise the burr on the other side.
 
mels95yj said:
Thanks Brian. I've dulled it, and I'm getting ready to start. Are you saying to skip the 30 degree all together?
Click to expand...

For this exercise, skip the 30 degree slots altogether. You can go back to them later if you want, after you've verified that you can create a sharp edge.

Are you saying to stick to the corner of the grey stones until it's sharp? Go to the flats and white stones after that or stop with the grey corners?
Click to expand...

I sometimes forget that the SharpMaker instructions say to use the corners. I stopped using them several years ago after watching a video by our guy JDavis882 (aka Crimson Tide Shooter here on BF) showing how to use just the flats in a rapid fashion.

[video=youtube;-MHe_8wTHmg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MHe_8wTHmg[/video]

I DO use the guards though and recommend the guards to anyone using the SharpMaker.

For this exercise, I would stop after the grey flats and test sharpness with arm hair, paper, etc and see how it cuts. If it's still "dull" then going to the white stones won't help. It should be quite sharp after the grey flats alone. If it's nice and sharp and you want to polish it more for even better push cuts, go ahead to the white flats. Or just leave it as is; the edge from the grey stones is a nice working edge in my opinion.

Good luck!

Brian.
 
I'm giving up for the night. While it will cut paper, it's not a smooth cut. It will cut arm hair, but you have to press down and make several passes. I'm starting to look like I've got mange. I've tried varying pressures and even did the up and down strokes like on the video. I'd say I've done close to 300 per side. Obviously, I'm doing something wrong, and I guess the softer metals on my other knives compensated for my inexperience.

I could see the reflection after dulling, and I don't now. It just seems like the more I do, the worse it gets. I'm just at a loss.
 
Will it slice cut telephone book paper (along the long edge)?

I still say get a loupe, do the Sharpie trick, and take a look for any remaining Sharpie anywhere along the edge. Especially where you feel resistance when slicing.

Also, after you did the up and down strokes on a single side, did you feel a burr on the opposite side?
 
I don't have any telephone book paper here, so I've been using printer paper. I'll try the phone book tomorrow at work and see.

I wish I could say I know what I'm feeling for, but I do not. I've done 100 passes on a side without switching, and I cannot feel one. I've tried the back of the thumbnail, fingertips, compared it to the sharpened side, and I just don't feel anything different.

I may try to pick up a loupe just to see.
 
It seems to me that you don't have a clean pointy apex, and believe me I know how frustrating it is reading the marvelous edge you should get, and not been able to do it.
I'll try this:
- dull it again
- use the corners of the grey stones until you can't see light reflecting. Careful not to tilt the spine of the blade to the inside of the device, if you can't keep it completely up and down is better to be off toward the rod.
- at this point I think Is where you are over doing it 300 passes is really overkill, once the edge won't reflect light you only need to refine and clean it. 10 passes per side on the flats spine completely vertical and caressing the stones with feather pressure.
that should do it, if not try 10 more.
If at this point it is still not cutting cleanly and shaving, the issue most likely comes from angle control in the grinding, I mean you're hitting the apex with a more obtuse angle at some point and the you're not able to refine it further.
Hope it helps
Mateo
 
Well, it will not cut phone book paper. I'll try it again tonight, but I'm not hopeful at this point. It's driving me crazy that I have a higher end knife that can barely cut butter and a $10 knife that can circumcise a mosquito. Thanks for everyone's help. I'm just wondering if another sharpener might compensate for whatever I'm doing wrong.
 
mels95yj said:
I'm giving up for the night. While it will cut paper, it's not a smooth cut. It will cut arm hair, but you have to press down and make several passes. I'm starting to look like I've got mange. I've tried varying pressures and even did the up and down strokes like on the video. I'd say I've done close to 300 per side. Obviously, I'm doing something wrong, and I guess the softer metals on my other knives compensated for my inexperience.

I could see the reflection after dulling, and I don't now. It just seems like the more I do, the worse it gets. I'm just at a loss.
Click to expand...

That's the trap with the Sharpmaker or similar ceramic V-crock setups. IF the edge is already pretty close to apex, and within the angle limits of the Sharpmaker, it's usually fairly easy to improve upon the edge with CAREFUL technique, keeping good control of the angle and pressure. However, if the held angle varies a little too much, and for too long (read: fatigue sets in, and technique gets sloppy), it's an uphill battle from there. The more variation there is in held angle from pass-to-pass, the worse it gets, with the edge becoming both rounder and blunter. Trying to recover from that with a highly wear-resistant steel (S30V) on slow-cutting ceramics just makes it more frustrating. The ceramics don't handle the vanadium carbides well (less-hard alumina will essentially 'skate' across the carbides), and it's even worse as the rods begin to load up. Re-establishing the bevels with an abrasive that does the work quickly is what's needed then. After some rest for yourself to get your hands and technique steady again, using diamond or CBN rods for the SM will make it much easier, working more quickly and therefore staving off the errors that come from working too long on the ceramic rods.


David
 
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It seems as though everyone's consensus is the problem is my technique and the angle I'm holding the knife compounded with the CPM S30V. Also, it seems the rods have play when in their holes, which would alter the angle depending on the pressure I'm using. From my research, most recommend the diamond and UF rods which come to around $80. I'm just wondering if something like the Edge Pro would be a better option for me. I know it had its own learning curve, but the knife is held more stably which might help me. Any thoughts?
 
mels95yj said:
It seems as though everyone's consensus is the problem is my technique and the angle I'm holding the knife compounded with the CPM S30V. Also, it seems the rods have play when in their holes, which would alter the angle depending on the pressure I'm using. From my research, most recommend the diamond and UF rods which come to around $80. I'm just wondering if something like the Edge Pro would be a better option for me. I know it had its own learning curve, but the knife is held more stably which might help me. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

The Sharpmaker is a good (or even GREAT) tool. It's worth investing the time & practice to get the hang of it. If it were me, I'd invest in either the diamond or CBN rods for it now, and give yourself a chance to see how much difference they can make on their own. The SM is very good for teaching the 'touch' aspects of freehand sharpening (good use of light, light pressure & good angle control, and 'feeling' what's happening via your fingers), all of which will directly transfer to any other sharpening challenges you pursue later on. A great way to very quickly see what diamond/CBN can do, is to take a thinly-ground blade in simple steel and make just a handful of passes on the hone (maybe ~5-10 passes) and see how the edge has changed. Something like a Victorinox blade (very thin grind, very easy steel) will respond beautifully and quickly to this, yielding a nice, sharp edge. Practice the light touch with that blade, and that same touch will reward you on every other hone type and blade you try afterwards. I mention this strategy specifically, because my own skills made a big jump forward in learning this with a Victorinox paring knife on a diamond hone. It'll teach very quickly, and reward you as well with a very nice edge.

Don't worry too much about play in the holes supporting the rods. It's sort of a 'red herring' distraction, in that it's not going to create problems that many think it will, and chasing it will lead one astray from the real issues at hand. With a light touch, as is always proper in good sharpening, even loosely supported rods aren't going to move enough to make any difference. If they are moving much, it means pressure is already too heavy and/or technique itself is unsteady.


David
 
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Ok, if I order these rods, they won't be in until next week, so that gives me a few days to practice with the factory ones. If I was to dull the blade as stated above, approximately how many strokes per side should I do until I start to see improvement? Should I be able to cut paper after 25 per side? 100? As far as pressure, how hard should I be pressing? I've tried it to where I can see the rods move, and I've tried it to where the blade is barely touching the rods. Sorry for all the basic questions. I thought I was getting pretty good at this, but this knife is proving I'm not.
 
mels95yj said:
Ok, if I order these rods, they won't be in until next week, so that gives me a few days to practice with the factory ones. If I was to dull the blade as stated above, approximately how many strokes per side should I do until I start to see improvement? Should I be able to cut paper after 25 per side? 100? As far as pressure, how hard should I be pressing? I've tried it to where I can see the rods move, and I've tried it to where the blade is barely touching the rods. Sorry for all the basic questions. I thought I was getting pretty good at this, but this knife is proving I'm not.
Click to expand...

With an S30V blade, I'd not attempt to dull the blade any more than it is; in fact, I'd not deliberately attempt it at all. It'll just mean a LOT more work to restore a crisp apex, especially using the factory rods, which be exponentially slower the duller the edge becomes. If you want to practice that technique, it'd be better to start with a simpler steel. I'd not mess much, if at all, with the S30V blade until you have access to the diamond rods.

As for counting passes, there are too many unknowns to predict what it'll take. I've never liked counting for this reason. It's better to gauge progress by test-cutting in paper or whatever else you might ordinarily test the edge on.

Pressure that's very heavy at all on ceramics will always be counterproductive (it'll either roll, chip or burr the edge). My reference for decent use of pressure is to imagine the rods are lightly covered in dust; use the edge of the blade to gently sweep it off the rods, with little more pressure than that.


David
 
mels95yj, I've read through all the posts a couple times, and let the information percolate, bouncing around inside my head overnight. Please, don't spend another dime, but learn to use what you already own. Find someone locally who knows your background AND how to make edges sharp, and get together with them!
All of the information already given regarding the fundamentals of using the sharpmaker are excellent, But having somebody watch what you're doing after verifying the geometry of this knife's edge would be the most helpful thing you could do to climb your learning curve. I did assume you already watched the spyderco video where Sal demonstrates its uses. It's on YouTube if you don't have something to watch the DVD with.
In climbing my SM learning curve, after two days of unsatisfactory attempts at sharpening, I used some Goggle fu, and re-watched Sal's video and realized two things: Sal said not to use more than about three or 4 pounds of pressure (that is lighter than field grade hunting triggers), and the second was that I observed he was not terribly careful at holding the tools perfectly vertical as he was sharpening (inferring by his actions that a couple degrees either way is a wash). Thank God I did heard him say that 20 strokes at each stage was enough. That was enough information to instantly create sharp edges, in short order, on chinese, AUS8, and 154CM blades; later I added benchmade D2 and m390 blades and I have been able to maintain hair popping sharpness.
One of my sons is continuing to use too much pressure trying to sharpen a CRKT AUS8 knife in addition to having a regular but unsymmetrical approach to the stones. I am working first to train him on the difference between 3 pounds of pressure and 6 pounds of pressure, because I think that will yield the greatest improvement at this stage. I hope the ideas and the experiences help out.
 
scottc3 said:
mels95yj, I've read through all the posts a couple times, and let the information percolate, bouncing around inside my head overnight. Please, don't spend another dime, but learn to use what you already own. Find someone locally who knows your background AND how to make edges sharp, and get together with them!
All of the information already given regarding the fundamentals of using the sharpmaker are excellent, But having somebody watch what you're doing after verifying the geometry of this knife's edge would be the most helpful thing you could do to climb your learning curve. I did assume you already watched the spyderco video where Sal demonstrates its uses. It's on YouTube if you don't have something to watch the DVD with.
In climbing my SM learning curve, after two days of unsatisfactory attempts at sharpening, I used some Goggle fu, and re-watched Sal's video and realized two things: Sal said not to use more than about three or 4 pounds of pressure (that is lighter than field grade hunting triggers), and the second was that I observed he was not terribly careful at holding the tools perfectly vertical as he was sharpening (inferring by his actions that a couple degrees either way is a wash). Thank God I did heard him say that 20 strokes at each stage was enough. That was enough information to instantly create sharp edges, in short order, on chinese, AUS8, and 154CM blades; later I added benchmade D2 and m390 blades and I have been able to maintain hair popping sharpness.
One of my sons is continuing to use too much pressure trying to sharpen a CRKT AUS8 knife in addition to having a regular but unsymmetrical approach to the stones. I am working first to train him on the difference between 3 pounds of pressure and 6 pounds of pressure, because I think that will yield the greatest improvement at this stage. I hope the ideas and the experiences help out.
Click to expand...


+1 Right on the money.
 
I created a similar thread to yours about a blade I couldn't sharpen on the Sharpmaker even though I was an experienced user. I never did learn what I did wrong for that particular blade but I did almost 20,000 strokes with the diamond rods and ended up with a dull knife, so don't think you can lick this problem with just effort and persistence with the diamond rods. I wound up buying a sander, which fixed it, but I'm not recommending that for you.

On another blade, I learned how hard it can be to see a tiny strip of Sharpie marker without a loupe. Even after finding that untouched Sharpie marker I wasn't able to get rid of it with a reasonable number of strokes with the diamond rods. At P360, I don't think they are coarse enough.

If I were you, knowing what I know now, I would skip them and go to the Congress Tools web site and buy the ruby rods in these grits: 80, 150, and 320. These rods fit the Sharpmaker, but are 1" shorter, which isn't a big issue as you maintain angle control better with shorter strokes. These rods are $5.85 each, and if money is an issue, you could buy just one of each grit for establishing a burr, as you work on only one side of the blade at a time.

I would also want another set of rods intermediate between that 320 and the 1200 of the medium rods. There arn't any available in ruby, but note that Congress has many, many, different rod materials and in some of the others you can get a 600 grit. You would want two of those.

I don't know nearly as much as the other guys on here, but I do have some experience with the Sharpmaker, and that is what I would do. I'd also get the loupe.
 
My current system for determining sharpness is:

1) slice cutting down the edge of copier/computer printer paper. A dull knife won't do this. This is my minimum standard for sharpness but it isn't to be disparaged. It's good enough, imo, for regular kitchen knives that tend to go through the dishwasher.

2) slice cutting down the edge of newspaper. This is a considerably harder test than the printer paper slice cut

3) slice cutting down the edge of telephone book paper. I'd like to see if others agree or disagree, but my experience has been a knife will do this, it will also shave the hair off your arm with a few repeated strokes

4) cross-grain slice cutting of telephone book paper and push cutting telephone book paper. This takes not only a sharp blade but also a highly-refined edge.

You can use these tests to see how you are progressing and determine when YOU are satisfied. Of course, there are finer tests such as hair whittling and using toilet paper. I haven't gotten to that level yet, and probably won't even try but you may want to once you get past this problem.
 
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