SAK vs. Branded Folders

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keluangus

Joined
Jul 11, 2006
Messages
50
Hi All,

I own numerous SAKs (vics, of course), a Swisstool and a Leatherman S. All have seen service on fishing/camping trips, emergency use, apartment fixtures, etc. (the leatherman needlenose pliers came to the rescue of a fishing trip - when our car's fuel flap refuse to unlock and open!:eek: )

My question is: how do you compare the blade and overall folder quality (especially the strength of the hinge) to other folders from Spyderco, CRKT and so on?

I suppose I am trying to figure out whether these branded folders (no, they are not multitools to be fair) are worth what I feel are exorbitant prices.:jerkit: Collections aside - these knives are to be used, and used hard. I also depend on them for my survival and also really as multitools when fishing, etc. What good is an Emerson worth several hundred dollars, when what I need is a bloody phillips head screwdriver, 15 miles up river from camp?:grumpy:

But if the SAK can't be expected to hold itself together when used as a knife just like how i'd expect to use a spyderco, then I must be aware of its limitations. Having limitations is no fault of a knife - using it while ignoring its limitations is just asking for trouble.
 
Any use a SAK or Leatherman can't handle needs a dedicated tool that you may or may not have on hand. MacGyver is fiction (mostly).
 
You might want to check out two Leathermans Knife offerings, the e307/e307 or its lockback larger cousion the K502/503, both offer good quality blades(cm154) and a bit driver with bits, you can also buy it with extra bits that fit in the sheath.
Good compromise if you want a knife with better than averageblade steel but also a bit driver and bits,
As a bonus you also get a locking Caribiner on both models.

Kap
 
Been using Victorinox folders for awhile now & I can't find a better tool anywhere. They were originally made to disassemble & reassemble the Swiss Rifle.. hence the Soldier Model. They are not made to replace dedicated tools. They work great when in a pinch. My work bud can & does break every tool they give him so, he is not going to handle my Victorinox knife ever!
 
My Saks get the most use out of any of my knives. Generally when I carry a modern locking folder, it gets used for things the SAK could handle, which is the only way I ever get to use those knives. My Manix and fixed blades can chop and baton, two things I don't do with most my SAKs. My Nylon solo is robust enough to baton though. I usually only carry a fixed blade if I'm going to be doing heavy chopping, but the SAK saw could replace the fixed blade in most cases.
 
I have not bothered to own a lock blade knife for years now. A sak will do any cutting work you need done that a "tactical" knife will do, plus work on that phillips up the river. My outlook is if my sak is too small, thats why I carry a fixed blade on the river, woods, and so on.

And you are right about the prices they charge for those other knives. I worked as a machinist in manufacturing, and when I see the knife buying public being ripped off to the degree that they are, I wish somebody would go to jail. Its out and out thievery.

The modern single blade knife is designed to be the cheapest way to produce a knife. Its CNC machines all the way. Parts are blanked out on a CNC machine, assembled by low paid workers who only have to be trained to use the screw inserting machine. Gone are hand set rivits and crinked blades. Its a mass production streamlining the whole way, and the knife manufacuers are laughing up thier sleeves. Spyderco, Benchmade, even Emerson, are taking full advantage of telling the knife consumer they are getting something special, when they are not. What they are getting is a knife that was designed from the start to be fast, easy and cheap to produce on automated machines, and be put together with torx or allen screws. The most skilled person is the programer of the Takaswa.

If Victorinox can make a three layer sak with 7 blades, on high speed automated machines, ship them across the Atlantic, distribute them nationwide, and still sell them for 20 bucks, why is a simple single blade knife made here in the U.S. on the exact same kind of machines sell for a hundred?

Somebody is getting ripped off!
 
Jackknife!

Way to go, dude! You see, in the 1st three years of my working life I was trained as a tool and die maker in a small shop - that meant having to operate everything including the CNC. But that's why I couldnt see the value in those branded knives! If you or I got a block of D2, and the machinery in a standard shop - we could easily knock out plenty of durable knives at a shockingly cheap cost. The rest is heat treatment and come on, the public should now its all programmed nowadays! In the knife mags we see ads for small ovens which are very simple. In the big shops the damn ovens are completely computerised and it will do the same job everytime. So why we have to pay so much? Of course, handbuilt pieces of art like Loveless' are different. And I have to agree: if the SAK is too small for the job, then a specific tool is called for or a fixed blade is needed. Which is why until now, the survivalist or woodsman still rely on a good fixed blade as his first blade, folder second. But wouldn't you also agree that even for fixed blades, many brand name knives are rip offs too? The best damn material is the simple and humble D2. Yet, they have to make knives out of some bloody exotic sounding thing: all marketing if you ask me. D2 is cheap and widely available - and every heat treating shop knows just what to do with it. Thanks, my man: I am keeping my SAKs and stuff the branded names.
 
Hey there keluangus-

It has disgusted me for years now to see where the knife world is going. If half these people ever saw injection molding taking place they would demand a 50% price cut on every zytel handle knife on the market. We had an injection moplding machine at my work place and it was used to make insulators. It made hundreds of parts an hour, and that was a small one!

Ever seen a Niagra punch press at work? A workman can take a sheet of stock, and in 2 minutes have a pile of blade blanks ready to go to the automatic profile machines, then on to the computerized heat treat.

I could go on but then I start getting mad on my soap box. Yes, I do agree that many of the fixed blade knives are rip-offs too. Its all in the advertising. If you convince the idiot public that a single piece of steel knife with two micarta handle slabs screwed on is worth the better part of a hundred dollars, then they deserve to make the money, because the consumer is too dumb to keep it. P.T.Barnum hit the nail on the head when he said theres a sucker born every minute.
 
jackknife said:
Hey there keluangus-

It has disgusted me for years now to see where the knife world is going. If half these people ever saw injection molding taking place they would demand a 50% price cut on every zytel handle knife on the market. We had an injection moplding machine at my work place and it was used to make insulators. It made hundreds of parts an hour, and that was a small one!

Ever seen a Niagra punch press at work? A workman can take a sheet of stock, and in 2 minutes have a pile of blade blanks ready to go to the automatic profile machines, then on to the computerized heat treat.

I could go on but then I start getting mad on my soap box. Yes, I do agree that many of the fixed blade knives are rip-offs too. Its all in the advertising. If you convince the idiot public that a single piece of steel knife with two micarta handle slabs screwed on is worth the better part of a hundred dollars, then they deserve to make the money, because the consumer is too dumb to keep it. P.T.Barnum hit the nail on the head when he said theres a sucker born every minute.
Click to expand...

To a large extent, it depends on where you're coming from. For someone knowledgeable about knives and fabrication, it seems a rip. But to the average guy (Me! Joe Average!) who knows litlle about either subject but wants a good knife, paying the extra money is in lieu of specific knowledge. I have never heard of, let alone seen a Niagra punch press. I'll bet there is equipment in my trade the punch press operator has never seen. We all have our specialties.

Maybe the $50 branded knife could be sold for less, but I find it a painless price for value received. Also, the better branded prducts hold their value well if you want to sell them off, so you are never really out all that much in terms of value.

One advantage of branded items is they get reviewed and commented on, helping the non-specialist to navigate around the various offerings. There may be others equally good and cheaper, but to me and my ilk, concensus is not a bad guide. The few blades in my "collection" are name brand products which I researched from the internet (Bladeforums, mostly) and I couldn't be happier.

I don't think it is idiocy to trade money for time, so long as you don't overdo it.
 
Not too mention all the problems reported with modern knives. Look at the QC and consistency of Victorinox compared to any other company out there. Not bad. Striders, which cost over 50 times as much as many Vics have way more reported problems.
 
I carry a Spyderco Manix and a Leatherman wave. The Manix is kept keen and clean, very limited use, and the blades on the Leatherman get the bulk of the abusive jobs. I have a big sharp knife if I ever need it in the Manix and the combo does everything I could ever ask, money well spent in my opinion.

I see the point on how cheaply a knife can be made but thats just the tip of the iceberg. I'm a tech. in a large molding shop, work with plastic all day, yes its cheap and thousands of parts can be produced per hour but the cost of upkeep on the tooling and the cost of the people to perform that upkeep might surprise you.

Add that to the cost of design, advertising and all the other intracacies of the running of the business and a hundred bucks really seems like a bargin.

Frankly, I've never been impressed with the quality of a Vic. They have their place for sure but I think you get what you pay for.
 
Jackknife,

Ya, I know where you're coming from. I made moulds for plastic injection moulding. Anyway, I'll just keep using the SAK.

Znapschatz: no offence, my man. Its true what you say - the price for most knives are relatively affordable for the enthusiast. It's like popcorn marketing - sure the normal ones are only $2 a bag, but its no problem paying $5 for the BEST (according to the blurb on the bag). However I have to agree that only the premium knives receive reviewing and some do hold their value - I did mention Loveless; Scagel is another. But one wouldn't use these in the field, now would they?

Vivi - that's actually what go me started on this. I wanted to buy an RTAK, but having read the reviews of the tests done, it was a shocker! They got 2 replacements and both broke! I think what's happen is just like Jackknife described - people wised up to how easily it is to mass produce knives, market it good and make a bundle. But then the product is not built on quality and pride. Inevitably, its not a product worth the price.

I must stress that the custom built knives are a totally different bag. I can make knives to (haven't done folders), and I know the time it takes to do it with love, care and pride. And that's worth the money. Buyer beware, I suppose.
 
Two out of two knives breaking is not a good record.

A couple of years before I retired they hired a new guy in the machine shop. He told us to call him george because he wanted to fit in, but his name was Jorge. We told him if his name was Jorge, then thats what he should be called. He was a hell of a nice guy, spoke decent english, and was from El Salvidore. He had come to this country as a high school kid when his family wanted a better life. (This has a knife point, I'll get there)

Anyways, after a while we invited Jorge to be part of our after work night fishing foreys. I never knew that a small machete could do so much.

Jorge carried two knives- a much stained old Barlow jackknife, and a 12 inch Tramontina machete. He used the small machete for clearing brush in the way of casting, making forked sticks to rest his rod on, turning over logs and diging out grubs and other bait, and most of all cleaning his catch. I never saw panfish cleaned so effectivly. He had a wood cutting board glued on top of his little oscar cooler, and he would chop off the head and tail, open the fish like cutting a bagel, and scoop out the guts with a choked up hold on the wide part of the machete blade. His favorite scaler was a bottle cap like we used as kids.

By the time summer was half over, me, co-workers wayne, Gary, Hoppy, and Glen were all carrying 12 inch machetes for general use. We were converted.

My point- this guy who was from a poor background was not about to pay big bucks for a knife. The humble machete with a single piece of steel and two rivited on handle slabs was near indestuctable. It was a heavy use tool, and cost about ten bucks. For a knife to break like a RTAK for the money it costs is not aceptable. Its a rip-off just like the thick bladed tactical junk that can't even cut as well as a Case sodbuster in CV steel.

Shotgunner, you may not be impressed with saks, but they must be doing something right to make 35,000 knives a day, and sell them world wide. A sak is such recognized value that in some parts of the world you can trade a sak for a days work from an indiginous worker, a long truck ride, or a dinner with a place to stay for the night and breakfast the next day. On a rainforest tour in Costa Rica the wife and I saw the two most carried knives were machetes and saks. All the guides had a belt pouch with a sak in it, and we saw them for sale in San Jose. I would think that guys who make a living guiding jungle trips would carry good tools.

Considering that Case can deliver a three bladed stockman with good CV carbon steel, and some nice jigged bone handles for 35-40 dollars, the price of a manix is way outa line.

With the dumbing down of America, poor design and hype has taken over from quality build and effectiveness. Its apparent in knives, guns, and cars.

The age of mediocrity is upon us!

Now its all about mall ninja fantasy and hype, and BS mysteque. To find the most effective knives, look at the people who have made their living with them. The old hunting guides in Maine, the pro waterman on the Cheasapeke bay. You'll find some old time cutlery in use there.
 
Jackknife,
Couldn't agree more. What can I say: my machete is a 12" tramontina...hehehe. Cost me the equivalent of 6 bucks US. Good carbon steel - sharpen it right and it'll look after you alright.
 
Jack, I think you've touched upon some good points.

One, it's interesting to see how we as humans can develop our skills with insufficient tools. The way Jorge used his machete might of risen from a situation where he didn't have 50 different knives to wake up to and choose from.

Another is when you take a look around Blade Forums as a whole, you really do see a lot of unused knives. It's really disheartening to see so many fantastic looking knives and know the only thing they've ever cut open was an envelope or two.

Again, how many modern production knife companies can compare their QC to Victorinox's? How many of them can say they never outsourced ANY of their labor? How many of them will let you mail them a 40 year old knife that's so rusted it's hard to tell it was even manufactured by them and send you a brand new one, along with the original if you so request? Compare all the Navy Seal testing hype out there with Victorinox, who has had an official militairy contract with their knives for decades. It's amazing to me how a company whos knives are labelled toys by some members of this forum can be so outstanding in so many aspects people stress with Spyderco, Benchmade, SOG and the like.

I apologize if any of these claims about the company were wrong, it's all just off the top of my head. :)
 
Hey guys,

You know I just remembered something I read a while ago pertaining to our expectations of folders: "the best folder is a fixed blade knife". To put it in the proper context, what the phrase-coiner meant was that a folder will always be a folder. No matter what anyone can do, it can never outperform a fixed blade (except in concealability of course, but that's not a performance spec). So we should get our expectations right.

The way I read or more correctly - apply - that bit of wisdom is just like what many in this forum has already said: what we can do with the folder or multitool is fine, what it can't do is for the fixed blade (or specific tool). For me, it means I get a good, proven, value for money SAK - the rest I spend on a good 5-6" fixed blade.

One thing for machetes - because it can be cumbersome and often handheld, its the knife I expect to lose first in a mishap. I prefer to depend on an SAK deep in my pockets, and, a fixed blade strapped to my side. Now I'm going to start a new thread...
 
keluangus said:
Hey guys,


One thing for machetes - because it can be cumbersome and often handheld, its the knife I expect to lose first in a mishap. I prefer to depend on an SAK deep in my pockets, and, a fixed blade strapped to my side. Now I'm going to start a new thread...
Click to expand...

I did notice on our Costa Rican trip that the larger 18 to 24 inch machetes were hand carried by who ever had lead position to clear trail some, but every working member of the five day trip had a 12 inch of some type( Collins, Tramontina, La corneta...) in a sturdy leather sheath at thier side. They looked at the smaller machetes as we do a 6 inch sheath knife- Part of their personal kit. The cook even used one to carve the pork at the pig roast they had the last night in the jungle. It made an effective meat slicer. :D
 
Sorry guys, just dont care for the SAK, just not my bag.

Now on machetes, Tramontina is the cream of the crop as far as I'm concerned, I've gone through Cold Steel, Ontario, Martindale and most of the cheapies and my 6$ bolo is still the best I've used.
 
Hey shotgunner11,

each to hell his own way, eh? Good on you.

I must agree the Tramontina's 12" machete is really unbelievable value - in fact, I'm going to pick up another one tomorrow.

How about Bartheux (?) from Oregon - the heavy duty ones with the molded orange handle? They seem pretty solid and its a carbon steel blade. A bit heavy for the 18" - they cost about USD20+ each over here...
 
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