Samurai and Ninja Sword

sniperboy

sniperboy

Joined
Oct 19, 1999
Messages
2,836
Urgh! Just looking at the subject heading makes me cringe.. but I thought I knew the answer until I tried explaining it to a friend. I tried to do searches am still doing i now but my modem is slow tonight.

SO here it is...

WHy is it that the samurai sword is curved and the ninja sword straight? IS it a matter of concealment? Or just catering to styles? Or is it easier to make one over the other?

secondly. What is the advantage of hacving a curved blade? My take up on it is taht the curved blade matches the slashing arc and thus less resiwtance on the swing.. am I on the right track. Thanks for your time guys.

Now I continue my search on blade discussion forum and swordforum.
smile.gif


------------------
<A HREF="http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/balisong/balisong.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/balisong/balisong.html
</A> If you play with love you will be heartbroken; if you play with knives you will [bleed]


 
Originally posted by sniperboy:
WHy is it that the samurai sword is curved and the ninja sword straight? IS it a matter of concealment? Or just catering to styles? Or is it easier to make one over the other?
Click to expand...

Your stereotypical Japanese-style sword is curved. The reasoning formulates primarily around the style of heat treating utilized traditionally. It is very natural for a blade to curve due the heat treat. It can be controlled to an extent, but I am personally against trying to "force" things.

Ninja sword? I may ruffle some feathers when I say this, but I feel any kind of "straight sword of the Ninja" never existed. I feel it was a complete fabrication that has spread an almost dangerous amount. This is not to say there aren't swords that are straight. There most certainly are! Some are even being made nowadays.

The advantages to a curved blade? There are some advantages, some disadvantages, and some moot points. Well many moot points.

I enjoy a curved blade, I do not really like straight blades. An expert cutter can effectively cut with either style though. I do feel that for novice cutters, a curved blade does teach the actions more smoothly.

It does wind down to what you want, and what you are capable of using.

Shinryû.
 
Well, I tend to agree about the slashing effectiveness. If you just let your wrist twist slightly, you can use nearly the entire blade length in a slash. Personally, I tend to ignore what's 'traditional,' and just go with what works for me. In this case, that tends to be a straight sword (maybe a little curve up toward the tip), as it facilitates quick changes of direction more easily.

--JB

------------------
e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
There is really no such kind of dedicated Ninja sword. A ninja use any kind of swords.

I've just finished watching a VHS about the sword art of ninja, I didn't see a straight sword.

The everyday sword of a ninja is a wakizashi in length... under 60cm. With a normal suka and saya (handle and scabboard), which make sense that it draws faster and with the particular footwork, made the cut before the opponent even draw the sword.

I see a very long sword (normal curvature) against a yari (spear).

All kind of tricts that a samurai dare not to do.

Joe
 
From what I understand in this matter is that the blade MUST be fitted to the individual user for it to have maximum effectiveness. A katana is supposed to clear the ground by three inches when hangning at the side, limp-wristed, witht he hand touching the tsuba. Also, a Samurai trained fighter will wear his swoard at his side, as opposed to slung across the back.

If the curve is right, it will facilitate a quicker and smoother draw, which is very important when one examines the traditional "Samurai duel", where they stand at arms length and the draw decomes the first cut.

The Ninja sword, which some people consider to be a Western creation, was, I believe, a true design. It had a blade about 20 inches, the size of a good wakizashi, but had a two handed grip. They are decidedly less ornate than their Samurai counterparts.

You have to remember that to the Samurai, a set of swords was the most important possession, and they never left his side. His honor depended on it. Samurai swords took a very long time in the hands of a master craftsman to reach the finished product. A Samurai was more like a well groomed military officer in the modern sense. They were honor bound to their masters, and were loyal to the death.

Ninjas on the other hand were asssasins and are more akin to Black Ops groups. The sword was just another tool in their array of weapons and skills, and held little emotional significance.

I may be rambling, but it is necessary for you to understand the differences in fighting styles and culture between the two groups in order to understand the differences in the styles and applications of the swords they carried.
 
Stiletto Raggio:

I'm just curious where you get your information on this. These kinds of things have been the source of many debates, some of which I've been a part of. But your information appears to differ from mine.

I mean no offense or disrespect, just wondering where you're coming from with this info.

Shinryû.
 
I too believe that the straight-bladed Ninja-to is a modern fabrication.Straight-bladed swords are most commonly(but not exclusively)for by those who fight primarily on foot. Curved swords are most-commonly(but not exclusively)used by those who fight on horseback. The Katana was originally developed as a backup weapon for horse archers.
A horseman's sword needs to be relatively long to reach its' target. Try drawing a long straight sword sometime, then draw a curved sword. Which is faster and easier?
The rest of my reasoning is located in the East meets West thread. This my reasoning and educated guesswork, not to be taken as a statement of fact.
If Laurie Wise is reading this maybe she would care to venture an opinion? She is said to be very knowledgeable in this area.
Laurie are you out there?

------------------
The thorn stands to defend the Rose, yet it is peaceful and does not seek conflict
 
The "ninja" sword is probably a western fabrication/joke. If I were a real assassin would I really want to walk around with a club sword which only assassins would posses. Perhaps the Ninja favored a short sword, but it was probably no different then the short swords used by other people in that society.
 
Unfortunately, much of the information I have is only as memory serves me. I had a friend who moved away about two years ago that was very interested in martial arts and made a hobby of studying Ninjas.

If you are wondering about the historical information, a lot of it can be seen on various TLC and Discovery or PBS shows about martial arts. I got the thing about the "fit" of the sword from a catalog of very good hand made Samurai swords that was selling a set that was supposedly amde to fit someone of the great Miyamoto Musashi's height. I learned the spitirualu importorance of the swod from reading Mushashi's own writings, the Book Of Five Rings. (which is a great read, even for non-weapons type people).

I know for a fact that Ninjas used a huge variety of weaponry, including Ninja-To (or other short swords), shuriken,various poisons, throwing knives, blowguns, Manriki chains, tashibishi, bows of various lengths and kamas. Since there was not heirarchial rules of combat or conduct which the Ninja followed, other than loyalty to their guild and flawless execution of their jobs, they could use whatever they wanted.

My quesiton is, where is the information disproving the existance of Ninja-To?

My main reason for believing that they existed in the afore-mentioned design is that they would operate in buildings much more often than a Samurai would battle indoors, and a short blade would make sense for that situation, but they still wanted the extra leverage and control afforded by a teo-handed grip. This also goes along with the idea that straight blades are more suited for infantry types, which the Ninja were.

Keep in mind that I am not saying that all Ninja used Ninja-To, because there was not "official sword of the Ninja" (like there is no official SEAL knife). People like that use what they want to use. The design of the Ninja-To just seems to make sense, and fit the purposes of a Ninja.

I am sure they also used concealed blades.
 
I am sure they also used concealed blades, but we all know wat you sacrifice with concealable or hidden weapons: accuracy and lethality.
 
Stiletto Raggio:

I do not mean to be offensive, but I do feel your knowledge on the historical ninja (apparently what came from your friend) is inaccurate. In fact I believe modern concepts of ninjutsu are also of modern synthesis only

There is also no standardized way to measure a sword for an individual. It differs between different ryu, and even between different teachers. Though if you have your hand choked up to the tsuba, I suppose 3" clearance would not be TOO inaccurate for many arts.

You say the catalog mentioned a sword that was made for someone of the stature of Miyamoto Musashi. Did that sword have an exceptionally long handle, blackish leather handle wrap? I only ask because you may be referring to a Hanwei model "Musashi" as distributed through CAS Iberia. Very common, and personally not something I'm fond of. I may be off base, but that is my assumption. And not to mention many of the marketing they used for those swords was an enormous pile of lies. Anyways though...

The reasoning that Ninja-To did not exist is based on the fact that there are no historical representatives. I have seen many swords, but have never, ever seen anything I could consider a "Ninja" sword. Also logic would dictate that if Ninja used swords at all, they would have been the same swords anyone else used. A Chiisagatana sounds like it would be the closest thing to the "Ninja-To" concept that actually did exist.

Also the katana was not developed for cavalry use. The katana was an infantry weapon.

Again I mean no offense.

Shinryû.

[This message has been edited by Robert Marotz (edited 08-03-2000).]
 
Don't know if any of this is true but I read that the ninja used whatever sword they could get their hands on. The ones that they personally made had blades that were straighter than katanas due to the fact that it was easier to make a straight blade than a curved.

Also, can anyone clarify on this, if there are no such thing as "Ninja-To" then why does Harunaka Hoshino have a museum full of supposed authentic swords including many "Ninja-To" that he says are over 500 years old. The pictures I have seen of these swords resemble the stats of the so called "Ninja-To" Straight blade, long handle.

I just remembered where I read about Ninjas crafting their own swords with straight blades because it was easier. It was in a book written by Massaki Hatsumi. So if he says they are real, does that make him a liar??

------------------

Louis Buccellato
http://www.themartialway.com
Knives, Weapons and equipment. Best prices anywhere.
-------------

"only the paranoid will survive"
 
Traditional Japanese swords were easier to make curved, unless you wanted to leave it a non-treated bar of metal, which is sort of...stupid. There was no *need* to do so.

Also I do not mean to show disrespect for Mr. Hatsumi or others, but I would take what they say with a grain of salt. There are a lot of unsubstantiated claims from many ends of the spectrum.

But if they do exist, boy there must be hidden ninja societies around that protect them at all times and guard them from collector's and historian's sight. Because I have never seen one that wasn't modern-made, or wasn't a little toy.

There is too much evidence that shows that they never existed. Simple logic also dictates that they never really existed. For me to believe otherwise I would need to join a bunch of others and see these supposed "collections" where we can agree that they in fact DID exist. But that doesn't seem likely.
 
I haven't myself read this, but there was a book "Bansen Shukai (every river into water)" about three hundreds years ago. Ninja to must have been in there, cuz it was a summarization free from judgement of truth. Shurikens, makibishis, special pill food, portable saws, and swords. It was shorter than usual katana for convenience in a limited roomed place, its saya had a removable tip for the sake diving (in a pond, probably). But I don't mean all described in the book was true. For example, there was introduced "Mizugumo (water-spider)" that was made of a wooden disk of 1' diameter, used as shoes to walk on surface of water.

I suspect there must have been some weapon to fit sneaking operation, but all the Ninja To available are fake. The word "Ninja" was a newly invented terms for old terms "Rappa", "Suppa", "Oniwaban", "Shinobi" all of which meant the same thing around one hundred year ago (not sure).

Forgot to say, I love Ninja To if it existed or not.

------------------
Did you enjoy today?
\(^o^)/ Mizutani Satoshi \(^o^)/

[This message has been edited by WrongFriend (edited 08-03-2000).]
 
WrongFriend:

I do not insinuate that Ninja never existed...it is just that all modern concepts of which are just that...modern.

Ninjutsu was a standard art among the lists of military arts in the Tokugawa period which many samurai practiced. It was the art of espionage and concealment. As far as I recall, many bugei ryu had included it in their curriculum.

So I'm not saying they DIDN'T exist, I just very highly doubt what is conceived about them today is accurate to historical base.

Shinryû.
 
Robert, sorry for misunderstanding.
I mean historical references about Ninja was and is a mixture of fact and myth and jokes here in Japan, just like in US.

Some Ninjutsu are very serious MA, some doubtful, quite some others are fictions and jokes. I suspect the serious Ninjutsu are not the ones Ninjas (no, the term was not there when Ninjas in action) really applied to their jobs.

I've been trying to have as much fun as possible about Ninja as nobody can surely tell what was true and what was not. If we have now "Ninja Sword", we HAVE now! Why care if it existed or not in the place far, far away (from you)?

------------------
Did you enjoy today?
\(^o^)/ Mizutani Satoshi \(^o^)/
 
WrongFriend:

I can agree with just about all of that. Of course as with many "lost" arts, there will be remnants of truth therein over time preserved through other arts.

Also the "Hollywood-esque" ninja is not of modern synthesis. But it was still theatrical. There were Ninja Houses (kinda like Haunted House-type things), Ninja games, Ninja novels and performances and all sorts of things in the Tokugawa period. We don't know if it was completely synthesized as fictional performance or if some of it was based on truth. We can assume either way, but generally any way you look at it, it was a form of entertainment back then and still today in its many forms.

But again, I'm not meaning to insult anyone or anything here, just sharing.

Shinryû.
 
Robert...Thanks for your input, obviously you are an ardent student of this art and therefore well rounded in it's historical and regional background.

It's nice to have someone post their findings with such a clean and friendly way, very good of you to take the high road in this approach and I look forward to your responses to other threads here in the Sword forum.

I've wondered if the Ninja stories haven't just grown with the telling? Sort of Paul Bunyanish?


G2
 
Gary W. Graley:

Thank you for your compliments. I enjoy being able to share what I can with people, and I hope we'll all be able to teach and learn from each other.

And as to your curiosity there...Yeah I think over time things tend to be stretched out, assumed, and expanded upon. With each new generation, we stand upon the shoulders of our predecessors and expand upon them with our own creativity.

Shinryû.
 
Mr. Marotz: I do not presume to be some expert on martial arts or Samurai or "Ninja", I was just repeating info that I had gathered from various sources.

Yes, it was from a "reproduction" catalog, but it was not CAS Iberia. These were usable, differentially treated swords that cost upwards of 1000 bucks a piece, so I thought that they would know something about the subject.

I have not studied this in depth, and as I said before, I have no conclusive evidence to prove the existance of Ninja-To. It just seems that a weapon of that description would suit the purposes of "Ninja" quite well. If it didn't exist, it should have, because the ones I have handled today make very nice close combat weapons without the full size of a katana.

About the cavalry thing, I thought that most Japanese cavalry were armed with bows or light spears, not swords. That is not to say that a Samurai, who was basically a foot soldier in combat, could not use a Katana effectively from horseback.

I know you meant no offense, and none is taken. I just hope you don't think I was trying to say that I KNEW that Ninja-To existed.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top