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San mai steel
- Thread starter 629hugo
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2010
- Messages
- 1,611
The best tip I would give for a person makig their first san mai billet would be to try to start with steel that is already pretty close to the dimension that your final blade will be in so it will be easier to keep the center layer centered by not have to draw out the steel so much. However, don't make the pieces too large because it will be a lot easier to get bad welds with the amount of area you'd have to cover during the forge welding.
If you look out ANY tutorial on how to make damascus or how to forge weld a billet, you will find pretty much all of your answers there, because you are basically just making damascus with 3 layers. So I would suggest reading up all about forge welding and making damascus (aka pattern welded steel) and once you can forge weld at least 2 pieces of steel together, you should have no problem from there on, exept for of course growing your skills.
Also make sure to do some research about which steels make for a good forge welding mix, (like how 1095 and 15n20 are great for damascus because the contrast after etching is good and the heat treat for both of them is very similar to one another. This actually isn't as important for san mai as it is for damascus because you are only using one type of steel for the cutting edge (the center piece). Wrought iron is very fun to use in san mai due to how soft it is and how much character it has when it's etched in acid. Try to use 2 steels that have some contrast for san mai such as a 1/16"- 1/8" 15n20 for the outer layers and a 1/16"- 1/8" 1095, or 1084 for the core steel to get some nice contrast after etching. Ideally you want to use a steel that will remain softer and be more corrosion resistant for the outer layers, like how 15n20 has nickel in it which adds corrosion resistance, or how wrought iron has no carbon in it which makes is softer. Another great steel for using as the outer layers of a san mai billet is called A203 e, which you can get from admiral steel. It is basically a mild steel with some nickel added to it which is good for both of the above qualities (softer and more corrosion resistant), and for some odd reason, when etched, it almost looks like wrought iron, it has a lot of character and looks very cool.
Any way let me know if this helps you out at all and if you have any specific questions. I'm deffinitely not an expert, but I'm sure I can help you out with some Q's you have. I'll also try to find some WIPs or tutorials on san mai later on when I have more time.
Below is a video I made a few years ago which was one of my first goes at forging san mai, I took on a bit more than I could chew at the time since I started with such small thick pieces and ended up having to draw the billet out by hand about 4 times the length! lol ... This is actually called go-mai since there are 5 layers, but for simplicity sake I just call it san mai with an extra layer on each side to add contrast.
[video=youtube;PkTGLkdpOdk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkTGLkdpOdk[/video]
Hope this helped ya out a bit
-Paul
www.youtube.com/Lsubslimed
If you look out ANY tutorial on how to make damascus or how to forge weld a billet, you will find pretty much all of your answers there, because you are basically just making damascus with 3 layers. So I would suggest reading up all about forge welding and making damascus (aka pattern welded steel) and once you can forge weld at least 2 pieces of steel together, you should have no problem from there on, exept for of course growing your skills.
Also make sure to do some research about which steels make for a good forge welding mix, (like how 1095 and 15n20 are great for damascus because the contrast after etching is good and the heat treat for both of them is very similar to one another. This actually isn't as important for san mai as it is for damascus because you are only using one type of steel for the cutting edge (the center piece). Wrought iron is very fun to use in san mai due to how soft it is and how much character it has when it's etched in acid. Try to use 2 steels that have some contrast for san mai such as a 1/16"- 1/8" 15n20 for the outer layers and a 1/16"- 1/8" 1095, or 1084 for the core steel to get some nice contrast after etching. Ideally you want to use a steel that will remain softer and be more corrosion resistant for the outer layers, like how 15n20 has nickel in it which adds corrosion resistance, or how wrought iron has no carbon in it which makes is softer. Another great steel for using as the outer layers of a san mai billet is called A203 e, which you can get from admiral steel. It is basically a mild steel with some nickel added to it which is good for both of the above qualities (softer and more corrosion resistant), and for some odd reason, when etched, it almost looks like wrought iron, it has a lot of character and looks very cool.
Any way let me know if this helps you out at all and if you have any specific questions. I'm deffinitely not an expert, but I'm sure I can help you out with some Q's you have. I'll also try to find some WIPs or tutorials on san mai later on when I have more time.
Below is a video I made a few years ago which was one of my first goes at forging san mai, I took on a bit more than I could chew at the time since I started with such small thick pieces and ended up having to draw the billet out by hand about 4 times the length! lol ... This is actually called go-mai since there are 5 layers, but for simplicity sake I just call it san mai with an extra layer on each side to add contrast.
[video=youtube;PkTGLkdpOdk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkTGLkdpOdk[/video]
Hope this helped ya out a bit
-Paul
www.youtube.com/Lsubslimed
Last edited:
Coldsteel- that does help. I have been researching forge welding too. I will probably start either 1/16" or 1/8" stock. I want to use stainless like 304 and wrap it around 1095. I am in the process of having a house built right now so I dont have a workshop for a few months so all I can do is read and think up the next few projects. Thanks for the info and I will probably bug you for more info.
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
ilmarinen - MODERATOR
Moderator
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2004
- Messages
- 38,103
Stainless on carbon san mai is a very different animal from carbon on carbon san mai. You need to perfect your welding skills on carbon first, and then re-learn them on stainless. The failure rate in the stainless learning curve is high without big shop equipment and lots of welding skills.
This is the BF search engine. Put in the field "stainless san mai" and you will get many past threads on the subject.
https://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra
This is the BF search engine. Put in the field "stainless san mai" and you will get many past threads on the subject.
https://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
ilmarinen - MODERATOR
Moderator
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2004
- Messages
- 38,103
Glad to help.
You can also buy carbon core stainless san mai as well as carbon core stainless suminagashi ( and other core mixes) . Suminagashi is what many top quality culinary knives are made from. It is normally 11 to 50 layers of stainless on each side of a high carbon core, or VG-10. The Hitachi white paper core and stainless suminagashi is superb for beautiful slicers. I get it from Dictum in Germany.
http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/category/Staehle-3624_3628.htm?lang=en
You can also buy carbon core stainless san mai as well as carbon core stainless suminagashi ( and other core mixes) . Suminagashi is what many top quality culinary knives are made from. It is normally 11 to 50 layers of stainless on each side of a high carbon core, or VG-10. The Hitachi white paper core and stainless suminagashi is superb for beautiful slicers. I get it from Dictum in Germany.
http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/category/Staehle-3624_3628.htm?lang=en