San mai - wavy lines

Stromberg Knives

Stromberg Knives

strombergknives.com
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Jan 3, 2015
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Hey!

I'm learning to make San mai, and it's going pretty well so far. But there is one thing I've been thinking about.

If I want the cladding line more wavy/squiggly (like a hamon), what would be the best way to accomplish that with my current setup? I have an Anyang clone 55 lbs power hammer with flat dies (with radiused edges and corners).

Thanks for all your help so far!
 
This is how I get this effect.
2wyi6U3.jpg

vrmwCPo.jpg

I use large round dies in my press to make grooves in the billet. Then I flatten the billet out. I don't grind off the high sides like you would do to make ladder pattern Damascus. I think I got this idea from J.T.
 
I get that effect by forging scallops in the edge with the blade on the anvil horn. Forge in the large scallops on both sides and them grind it flat.
Alternately, you can grind in the scallops and forge them flat ( Some folks find this easier). Either way, you get the same effect.
 
I've never done it, but I've seen it done as Stacy describes. I saw the guy score the cladding material right to the core with an angle grinder, then forged it flat again with a power hammer. Didn't take very long at all, and as skeptical as I was watching him go, the finished result was really excellent.
 
If you're willing to experiment, Stomberg, I'd like to see the difference in results between forging scallops then grinding flat and grinding scallops then forging flat. I've done a ladder pattern both ways. I'll probably play with this, but it's going to be a couple/ few more months before I get my forge/shop set up again.
 
Thank you guys for all suggestions and advice. I will try them out on the next piece.

This is how my first san mai turned out. It's a small kiridashi, as I thought I'd start small to learn the process. It's 420 cladding and a 1095 core. Etched in ferric chloride and coffee.

I will try to make a more interesting pattern on the next one, using your advice.

W8jlfci.jpg
 
Stromberg Knives said:
It's 420 cladding and a 1095 core. Etched in ferric chloride and coffee.
Click to expand...
How hard was that to do? i want to have a go making similar san mai. is there a nickle layer in there too?

Stromberg Knives said:
I will try to make a more interesting pattern on the next one, using your advice.
Click to expand...
I really like the straighter line. it's elegant and simple, works nicely with the shape of the blade
 
Alex Topfer said:
How hard was that to do? i want to have a go making similar san mai. is there a nickle layer in there too?
Click to expand...

Well, as with most things, it's all in the details. You just have to test different procedures and see what works best for you. I used a 2:1 FeCl with destilled water and made short passes scrubbing lightly with steel wool. The coffee needs more experimenting with, I used Mareko Maumasi's recipe.

There is no nickel layer in there, just 420 and 1095. The line and the shadow should be from carbon migration due to the stainless.

I really like the straighter line. it's elegant and simple, works nicely with the shape of the blade
Click to expand...

Thanks, and I totally agree!
 
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Stefan, that is a really good carbon migration line - I was wondering about that myself. The line is so bright it almost looks like a nickel layer between the two layers. You did really good job. I sorta like the straight line on the core - but a bit of wavy would look good also.

Question, why are you using 420 SS rather than 416SS or other alloy?
Again, a really GREAT job there.
Ken H>
 
Ken H> said:
Stefan, that is a really good carbon migration line - I was wondering about that myself. The line is so bright it almost looks like a nickel layer between the two layers. You did really good job. I sorta like the straight line on the core - but a bit of wavy would look good also.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I like i too. I think it came out very distinct and clear. Yeah, I chose the profile based on the pretty straight migration line. I'm learning the wavy type for use on fighters and bowies, this is fun!

Ken H> said:
Question, why are you using 420 SS rather than 416SS or other alloy?
Again, a really GREAT job there.
Ken H>
Click to expand...

Oh, I scowered Blade Forums and repeatedly found pictures of really good looking san mai blades made by @Karl B. Andersen .

So I read everything he has written about his san mai process, materials and technique. Why reinvent the wheel with all this good information readily available. I'm very grateful for this forum and its contributing members, it's crucial for guys like me trying to learn new techniques. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

So, regarding the 420 vs 416, I found Mr Andersen explains the benefits using 420 in a couple of posts. And since I can get hold of 420 in a lot of dimensions, I thought I'd use tried and proven combinations of steel since I'm a beginner at this and will surely make mistakes anyway. :D
 
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I now have read @Karl B. Andersen's reasoning about 416 vs 420 (or 410) - it's the sulfur in 416 he says that causes 416 to sometimes crack during forging. Thank you for mentioning the problem.

I do agree with you 100% about "why re-invent the wheel" if the knowledge can be found on-line.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I get that effect by forging scallops in the edge with the blade on the anvil horn. Forge in the large scallops on both sides and them grind it flat.
Alternately, you can grind in the scallops and forge them flat ( Some folks find this easier). Either way, you get the same effect.
Click to expand...

Hmm, while planning the next billet I've been thinking about how to approach this using the tools that I currently have at my disposal. Which in this case is a grinder and a 55 lbs power hammer with flat dies.

Option #1 - forge the scallops
It would seem like the more efficient option, forge weld the billet, draw it out and then forge the scallops while the billet is still hot. And grind it afterwards.
  • Would it be possible to use the power hammer for this?
  • Could I make some sort of tool using round stock, and let the power hammer do the hammering?
  • Or would this be a bad idea?
  • Would this option make it harder to keep the core centered?
  • When will the grinding take place? Should I normalize, thermal cycle and anneal it before grinding it flat?
Option #2 - grind the scallops
The second option, grinding the scallops, would require the billet to first cool off, then grind, and then re-heat it and draw it out with the power hammer.
  • How deep should the scallops be ground?
  • Would small wheels get the scallops to wide?
Thanks!
 
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Yes, we are starting to harvest today.
Also grow SugarCane and rotate soybeans where they fit in.
 
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