Sandvik steels?

[ThreeWorlds]

Hey, I'm seeing that more and more custom makers are using one of the Sandvik steels and that Kershaw is getting a lot of press with its 13C26 on its Cyclones, etc.

Could someone give me a clear summary about its performance and how it compares to other more well-known stainless steels? Preferably in relatively understandable steel jargon free English (not really one for memorizing what vanadium does or primary carbides and how they form or whatever).

 

[Dog of War]

I've recently been using some Eriksson Mora knives made with 12C27mod, and I've been very impressed. If not mistaken 12C27mod has the lowest percentage of carbon of the popular Sandvik steels, and seems to be promoted on its corrosion resistance and for use in kitchen cutlery that gets washed in a dishwasher. I'm assuming 13C26 should offer better edge retention and other advantages for other cutlery use.

Eriksson claims its 12C27mod is hardened to about 58 Rockwell, and like I said I'm very happy with it. Of course heat treat is a big variable, but 12C27mod takes a very fine edge very easily, with virtually no tendency to burr, and compares in edge holding to the best 440C I've used. 12C27 and 12C27mod are often compared to 440A, but as a practical matter I've never had a 440A blade (or AUS-8A for that matter) that compared .... though again heat treat could be the big factor.

I've read that Sandvik steels are very "clean" but don't know how much difference that makes. Whatever the reasons, I've been really pleased with these $10-and-under Swedish Sandvik knives. Every S30V blade I've had, including a couple that cost 20 times as much, would tend to chip at the same low edge angles. I'm sure my experience with S30V isn't typical, but it makes me marvel even more at the Sandvik blades I've tried.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Preferably in relatively understandable steel jargon free English ...

In short, the Sandvik series of cutlery steels, 12C27m, 12C27 and 13C26 are designed to offer knife performance characteristics similar to low alloy carbon steels like 52100 with more corrosion resistance.

You don't however want to use Kershaw's knives in 13C26 to judge the ability of that steel, they run it too soft and too thick/obtuse. That is a steel designed for pretty much the opposite of their use.

I'm assuming 13C26 should offer better edge retention and other advantages for other cutlery use.

Higher hardness and wear resistance, lower toughness/corrosion resistance.

I've been really pleased with these $10-and-under Swedish Sandvik knives.

Yeah it is kind of ironic that you get a highly optomized steel in that price range. This will make it hard for custom makers to try to promote it because you can buy a knife with the same steel for $5.

-Cliff

 

[M Wadel]

Yeah it is kind of ironic that you get a highly optomized steel in that price range. This will make it hard for custom makers to try to promote it because you can buy a knife with the same steel for $5.

-Cliff

that will be the downside yes..

these steels are 1 clean, 2 uniform, 3 no supercarbides, only chrome. so they are easy to sharpen. 4 extremely smallgrained, for finer edges iirc. 5 cheap as dirt.

choosing steel is a game of compromises, and these are good compromises, unless you wanna go extreme and really need the extra abrasionresistance imo (high V-steels)

 

[Larrin]

that will be the downside yes..

these steels are 1 clean, 2 uniform, 3 no supercarbides, only chrome. so they are easy to sharpen. 4 extremely smallgrained, for finer edges iirc. 5 cheap as dirt.

choosing steel is a game of compromises, and these are good compromises, unless you wanna go extreme and really need the extra abrasionresistance imo (high V-steels)

The main disadvantage is availability. If the Sandvik/Uddeholm steels get enough press, than steel suppliers will likely purchase it, but until then, I hope you want a lot of it.

 

[ThreeWorlds]

So from what I understand, Sandvik steel is good for fine cutting chores, and maybe not so good for (for example) bushcraft and such? What would you say is the optimal hardness they should be run at, and how is it that they can be that hard with the low carbon count? I'm not so familiar with the supposed performance characteristics of 52100 ....

How do the 3 Sandvik steels compare to one another?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...unless you wanna go extreme and really need the extra abrasionresistance ...

Yes, that is the one of the critical points, when you add carbides to get wear resistance you are going to start to weaken the edge because there is less actual steel to hold the carbides in place. The other issue is the geometry of the edge itself. These steels are designed to perform optimally at very thin grinds made to cut very well. If you sharpen at typical 15-20 degree angles then you see little benefit from the inherent high edge stability and might as well use a high carbide steel and get the long term edge retention anyway, assuming the cost isn't a limitation.

-Cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The main disadvantage is availability.

You don't need to use those exact steels, just stainless steels of similar properties and harden accordingly. Plus as M Wadel has pointed out there are people who are reselling them for use by knifemakers.

http://www.nordellknives.com/

So from what I understand, Sandvik steel is good for fine cutting chores, and maybe not so good for (for example) bushcraft and such?

It is ideal for wood cutting assuming you want a very high cutting ability and keep your blades very sharp. Which tends to be how most experienced people do when working with wood.

What would you say is the optimal hardness they should be run at, and how is it that they can be that hard with the low carbon count?

Close to as quenched hardness which is very hard. You only need 0.6% carbon to get full martensite hardness of about 65/66 HRC. The reason that steels have more carbon than this isn't for hardening it is to form carbides. These steels have little primary carbide in them and hence have near a maximal hardening response for their carbon level.

I'm not so familiar with the supposed performance characteristics of 52100 .

Use any low alloy carbon steel, O1, W1, etc. .

How do the 3 Sandvik steels compare to one another?

In order of increasing toughness and corrosion resistance 13C26, 12C27, 12C27m. The hardness and wear resistance is the opposite.

-Cliff

 

[M Wadel]

dont know the word for this in english but 13c26/AEB-L is eutektoidic (spelling) steel isnt it?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The eutectoid point for carbon steels is about 0.8%, however when you add alloys it changes strongly, molybdenum more so than chromium which is why you can have primary carbides in these steels even at very low carbon levels.

-Cliff

 

[Larrin]

You don't need to use those exact steels, just stainless steels of similar properties and harden accordingly. Plus as M Wadel has pointed out there are people who are reselling them for use by knifemakers.
http://www.nordellknives.com/

I just e-mailed them asking about shipping to the U.S., but they are in Sweden, so the price could be pretty high. And as to other similar steels, they are just as difficult to find, unless there are suppliers selling Aus-8 or 8CR13MoV that are unknown to me, and I don't know about how good their quality is, while I already know that Sandvik and Uddeholm are top quality companies.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

420HC is a similar steel, at 1050 C it will fall close to the carbon saturation line for C/Cr steels. The downside is that you are limited in hardness to 58/59 HRC and this would take oil/cold and a low temper. Shipping should not be overly expensive unless they want to make their money on it. Considering the cost vs steels like ATS-34 and especially the CPM stainless steels the total cost per steel would still be very low.

-Cliff

 

[Larrin]

420HC is a similar steel, at 1050 C it will fall close to the carbon saturation line for C/Cr steels. The downside is that you are limited in hardness to 58/59 HRC and this would take oil/cold and a low temper. Shipping should not be overly expensive unless they want to make their money on it. Considering the cost vs steels like ATS-34 and especially the CPM stainless steels the total cost per steel would still be very low.

-Cliff

Converting the Sweden currency to U.S. dollars, it's approximately $5.86 per pound, which is expensive for AEB-L (due to buying it through a supplier of course), but cheap for "high performance" steels. Just waiting to hear about shipping costs. If shipping was $10 a pound than it would be around the same price as CPM steels, but I can't even guess at what shipping would be.

Edit: I'm still talking about nordellknives.com, of course.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

You can buy CPM-154CM, S30V, S90V for $15 a pound shipped?

-Cliff

 

[Larrin]

You can buy CPM-154CM, S30V, S90V for $15 a pound shipped?

-Cliff

Oops, that's some funny math, huh? For Admiral prices, S30V is (depending on amount purchased) $22.58-26.14 per pound, CPM-154 is $17.14-21.50, and S90V is a good $30+ a pound. Shipping will tack more on that, the more it weighs, the more you pay for shipping.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I just did some searching and found S30V for $20 a pound. Didn't mention shipping, but generally the cost of shipping per pound isn't comparable to $20, especially assuming you are buying more than one piece. When you buy more, especially when you go plate and thus have to cut it yourself the price drops as well. I would assume the time to grind these steels would have to be far different as well, much in favor of the Sandvik steels.

-Cliff

 

[Larrin]

I just did some searching and found S30V for $20 a pound. Didn't mention shipping, but generally the cost of shipping per pound isn't comparable to $20, especially assuming you are buying more than one piece. When you buy more, especially when you go plate and thus have to cut it yourself the price drops as well. I would assume the time to grind these steels would have to be far different as well, much in favor of the Sandvik steels.

-Cliff

I edited for Admiral prices right after your post. When you're talking about custom knives, I don't think time in grinding would be much of a factor, but time in heat treating would be lower for Sandvik, and finishing would be much lower than S30V and S90V, and probably not much noticeable difference for polishing between AEB-L and CPM-154.

 

[Larrin]

I just did some searching and found S30V for $20 a pound. Didn't mention shipping, but generally the cost of shipping per pound isn't comparable to $20, especially assuming you are buying more than one piece. When you buy more, especially when you go plate and thus have to cut it yourself the price drops as well. I would assume the time to grind these steels would have to be far different as well, much in favor of the Sandvik steels.

-Cliff

With Admiral, once you get up to like 60 pounds, it costs $.50-1.00 per pound.

Edit: For shipping. Boy I'm editing a lot today.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Note that the main promotion of CPM-154CM is just that it is easier to grind/polish than S30V and 13C26 has to be an even bigger improvement in that regard.

In regards to the heat treatment I think this is one of the main reasons people get the wrong impression about the simpler alloys. This is Landes recipe for din 1.4034 :

Preheat 1: 450-600°C equalize 3-5 min
Preheat 2: 850-950°C equalize 3-5 min
Austenize: 1040°C equalize 3-5min, hold 8min
Quench: oil preheat to 60°-80°C; N2 4bar
Cryo1: immediately after quench, <= -70°C, hold 1h
Temper1: 150°C for 1h, quench in Water
Cryo2: immediately after quench, <= -70°C, hold 1h
Temper2: 150°-180°C for 1h, quench in Water

Many of the "low end" knives would have a different behavior under a similar heat treatment. Assuming they could be evaluated without bias anyway, as right now they have horrible reputations.

-Cliff

 

[hardheart]

I emailed Chuck Stapel, asking about how he heat treats his AEB-L, since he shows use of it on several knives on his site. I asked specifically about the esqueleto model, but haven't gotten a reply in the last few days. I don't know if I will, one article on his site talks about how quickly he can make a knife to order.

Stapel is one of the fastest custom knifemakers around when it comes to one of his standard designs. A small skinner with a Micarta handle can be turned out in a couple of hours. He starts with a piece of heat-treated steel, then shapes, grinds, drills, clamps, cements and sharpens the small knife while you watch. The slowest step is waiting for the two-part epoxy to harden. If the knife is a simple "economy" model, he will use a shrink-wrap handle cover over the full tang knife and shave off half the time. The current design features a 3 3/4-inch blade of high carbon steel with black shrink wrap on the handle for an 8-inch knife overall. A custom leather sheath is optional.

I dunno what kind of HT allows for that.

edit: just used a 2nd address on the site, will see if I get a reply