Santuko (kitchen) Knives

[UnknownVT]

idly flipping through channels I came across (the very cute) Rachael Ray's 30 Minute Meals on FoodTV.

What caught my eye ws the "Granton" (scalloped) faced Santuko knife she said was her favorite.

At first I thought it was this Kershaw Shun Classic scalloped/Granton Santuko Model #0718

But the handle didn't quite look the same, neither could I see the "damascus" -
so doing some minimal research I found several web references that this was supposed to be a Wusthof Grand Prix Santuko model #4189

Ms. Ray was using the Santuko as a general kitchen knife (nothing wrong with that) -
however I thought Santukos were designed for very thin slicing for sushi for example and the Granton/scalloped face helps release the slices.

There was an on-line review from a user/purchaser that claims the Kershaw Shun Classic Granton Santuko was superior to the Wusthof -

http://www.housewarereviews.com/Kitchen/Kitchen_108.html
(note have to use their scroll bar to about 3/4 down the page)

QUOTE:
Expensive, but well worth the money
This is a gorgeous as well as very functional knife. Whether slicing cucumber or Nova lox which tends to cling, one can achieve paper thin slices with this blade with little effort. Knives at this price level are a matter of personal taste as much as anything else, but all the functional elements are present with the Kershaw Shun santoku. The balance is superb, the blade is razor sharp, and the cosmetic appeal of the forged high carbon multi-layered (32 layers) stainless blade cannot be overlooked either. While not a true damascus blade, the subtle damascus-like appearance of the layered steel has a timeless quality. The recesses of the granton edge are not all that attractive cosmeticall, but those recesses along the sides of the blade do allow the knife to better release from the food when slicing very thin. This knife can slice paper thin if your hand is up to the task.
I also own the Wusthof Grand Prix santoku made popular by Rachel Ray on Food TV. It is also a nice knife, however it is simply not in the same class with the Kershaw when it comes to cosmetics or function. The Kershaw Shun holds it's edge severl times as long as the Wustof. I have also used the J.A. Henckels Four Star santoku that a friend owns, and it is improperly designed. The granton recesses extend down to the edge making proper sharpening difficult, and producing something of a serrated effect.
<snip>
UNQUOTE

comments on Santukos?

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/

 

[El Lobo]

Hey Vincent,
My wife, (watches Rachael Ray. OK, so do I.), uses a Messermeister Santoku for everything and loves it. It has the Granton scallops, or kullens, as well. I keep it steeled 4-5 times a week for her and she hasn't chased me with it yet.

The Henckels in the review sounds like it has been sharpened enough to now hit the kullens. That is why I use the steel very regularly on ours, as I want to remove little/no steel for as long as possible. I heard that if you have to sharpen too often this will, in fact, cause the knife to be less effective.

It is a good all around knife, in my opinion, for someone who doesn't want to use different knives for different tasks. My wife uses 3. Bread knife, paring knife, santoku.
She's happy, I'm pleased she's happy.

Bill

 

[UnknownVT]

Hey Vincent,
My wife, (watches Rachael Ray. OK, so do I
<snip>
I keep it steeled 4-5 times a week for her and she hasn't chased me with it yet.
<snip>
She's happy, I'm pleased she's happy.

Now that's what I call smart -
get to play with knives and keep the wife happy

I forgot to mention on the Food TV program directly following Rachael's was "Food 911" and they were also using Santukos - not a Granton - from the glimpse of the blade etch I think it was a LamsonSharp -

Of course the reason I forgot was -
because I was distracted thinking about this -

I took this photo of Rachael when she sang on her $40 a Day show - at Fat Matt's Rib Shack, Atlanta, GA - June/6/2002 - aired first sometime in August/2002 (I've been told I was in that sequence, I've never actually seen that particular episode ...... )

- that brown paper bag she's holding had a song she wrote while waiting for the start of the filming.......

very talented lady.......

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/

 

[BOK]

A little off topic perhaps but is it San-TO-ku or San-TU-ko?

I've always believed it to be Santoku but speaking to a Wusthof rep the other day I noticed he called it Santuko.

And also, is it actually a Japanese word?

 

[UnknownVT]

A little off topic perhaps but is it San-TO-ku or San-TU-ko?
I've always believed it to be Santoku but speaking to a Wusthof rep the other day I noticed he called it Santuko.

I have found it spelt both ways -
but I think you're right - the majority seem to spell it San-TO-kU -
and that's the way it's spelt in the Kershaw Shun kitchen knives catalog too.

My bad - I blame it on being
distracted


--
Vincent

http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/

 

[Crayola]

I don't have a book habdy that would help me be a bit more precise, but here's what I know of Japanese kitchen cutlery (tough this could contain errors for sure!).

The Japanese craftsmen and artisans are specialists regarding their tools. Moreso in the (up to very recent) past, but amongs pro chefs and such, many, many, many knives are required to prepare food properly.

Any cook worth his wasabi would have at least 3 types of knives: a deba, a yanagi-ba, and a usuba. The Deba is a thick, wide, chisel ground blae meant for cutting fish, bones and all. It is somewhat like a western cleaver, but it is also used for funer cuts than cleavers typically are used for. The yanagi is the "sushi knife" that you'll see sushi/sashimi chefs used. Once you have fish made into blocks (lots of Deba work there), you use th eyanagi to make the fine, perfect slices. Yanagi-ba means willow leaf, and the blade is supposed to be like a willow leaf. This blade is also chisel ground, but made of thinner stock. I have seen pictures of yanagi that are very long (24"), meant for very large tuna! The usuba is a very thin, chisel ground or double ground vegetable knife. It is not meant for hard veggies (no slicing watermellon with one!), and insead is meant for getting perfect slices on softer veggies, which can be hard to get perfect pieces from if you don't have a very sharp, thin blade.

Now, these are only 3 types of knives. A chef would usually have many sizes and shapes of these 3 types. Also, you have different knives for different eels. Some of these eel knives look like Americanized Tanto knives, but much wider! THen there is a very large udon noodle cutting knife. It is freakin' huge compared to most western kitchen blades, and makes oen wonder why such a knife is needed for cutting noodles! There is also special knives for cutting blowfish. Japanese smiths have made Japanese versions of knives for cutting western foods. And the list goes on. There are even major East vs. West Japan Variations (Western Japan has squarer blade shapes, and the handle doesn't go right up to the ricasso shoulders; Eastern Japanese blades have rounder shapes and the handles go right up to the ricasso shoulders). And there are many "regional" knives too.

So, what the heck is a santoku? To me, it is the Japanese equivalent of the French chef knife. The "san" in santoku means 3, a reference to the 3 parts of the edge: tip, belly, heel. Each part is used for a different kind of cutting. The santoku is a "jack of all trades" blade. You might not be able to use it like a deba all that well, but you can still prelare blocks of meat and cut it into slices, cut veggies, etc. all with the santoku. There are versions of "santoku" which have a pointier point, which I have fallen in love with. The rounded front santoku is still a great design. I made one at Christmas that a customer wanted made for her hubby, and I have another ground out and just needing polishing and a handle! Santoku are very nice blades, for sure. Perhaps the best entry piece into Japanese blades. However, I'd rather have a Usuba, Yanagi-ba and Deba! Then again, I prefer specialized cutlery for cooking. If you want one knife, get a santoku! But also get a paring knife, and maybe a western cleaver or a Deba for the hard, thick stuff.

I recommend reading the www.japanese-knife.com website a lot to anyone who is interested in Japanese cutlery. Check out all of the different styles. By the way, soem knvies go by different names; it is easy to mess up names for Japanese things. Even the usuba I mentioned isn't always called that usuba is the name for the higher quality version of the veggie knife: the non-professional version is called a nakiri bocho. A Yanagi from the west has a square tip, so I don't think it is called a yanagi there. The name game in Japanese is just part of the fun with Japanese cutlery, and all things Japanese in general.

I hope this helps!

 

[Jeff Clark]

When you have a light knife like most santukos with the edge dropped a considerable distance below your grip you need to consider blade torque and look for a secure handle. With a heavy chinese cleaver or forged chefs knife the weight of the blade will reduce torque since a lot of the cutting force will come from blade weight. With a light blade all of the cutting pressure comes from your hand. If you try and press through something hard there will be a tendency for the blade to pivot sideways around the dropped edge. So for a santuko it is helpful to have a handle that resists twisting in your grip. The Spyderco version not only has a well contoured handle it also has anti-slip ridges. The MBS-26 alloy blade also takes and holds an exceptional edge. I would rate it as the most practical santuko.

http://www.knifesite.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3686

 

[Knife Outlet]

Santoku, in Japanese, means three ways or three methods. In other words it is compromise knife designed to handle chopping, slicing and striking. My personal opinion is that it is a decent knife if it is the only knife one will use - like Rachel Ray. It is a compromise, though. Chef knives do a better job of chopping, slicers a better job of slicing etc.

My other personal opinion is that if this is the only knife one is going to use, then it shouldn't have kullens (granton edge.) The reason is that repeated sharpenings will eventually take the edge to the cullens and, at that point the blade won't perform as well. The cullens do help keep food from sticking to the blade and I think they are probably worth it on a slicing knife. But a chopping knife gets a lot of use and a lot of sharpening so I don't think it's worth it there. Certainly it is worth it for Rachel Ray, however. The folks at Wusthof would send her a brand new knife for every show if she asked for it. Perhaps they do. I don't know.

My own Santoku is custom made in Japan and cuts like a dream. However, I rarely use it, preferring to chop with a chef knife (gyuto) and slice with a slicer. Good cooking.

 

[Lhet]

The first one looks more "japanese", while the second has more of a western handle, so that's what i think...

 

[HoB]

The first one (Shun) is vastly superior to the second (Wuesthof). The Shun series uses VG-10 steel, while the Wuesthof uses X 50 CrMo15 steel which I find quite soft and far inferior. I don't think that the Wuesthof steel comes even close to the steel used by Spyderco in their kitchen knives (MBS-26, a propritary steel by Masahiro I believe, one of the premier Japanese kitchen knive brands ). Secondly, in the Shun the edge steel is sandwitched between softer steels which are folded damascus, which gives comparable toughness of the blade with the edge steel much higher hardened. Lastly the Shun edge is sharpened to a much smaller included angle in comparison to the Wuesthof. IMO the Shun is one of the best deals on the market for kitchen knives. However, there are also some drawbacks: the edge of the Shun is more fragile because of angle and hardness than the one of the Wuesthof, and VG-10 even though it is a stainless steel, it is not as rustproof as the steel used by Wuesthof. Small price to pay, if you ask me.

 

[Daniel Koster]

interesting stuff here....

I do like the santoku design, but not so sure about those scallops in the blade...

 

[Eager]

My favorite Santoku is that by Shinichi Watanabe. It's traditional Ho (magnolia) wood handle I find better than western handles as it becomes rough enough after being wet a few times. The edge is a laminate of hard carbon steel between iron and is very thin and razor sharp but thick enough to have backbone. The Santoku shape fills a great niche as it works for paring knife duties and large knife chores as well. It's a great "go to" knife for chopping spuds, onions and also cutting apples. Has held the edge great, and my wife uses it too!

http://watanabeblade.com/english/pro/kaibou.htm

photo of Shinichi Watanabe selling his wares:

 

[HoB]

Eager,
Now we are talking ;-)!!!! My personal favorite (not a santoku, but a nakiri): http://www.bladegallery.com/knives/knife.asp?knifeid=1421&pics=small&alt=one
But I am still saving up for that one.
Also like the traditional knives from "japanese kitchen knives", superb knives for a very resonable price....but not rust proof and very high maintainance. IMO Shirogami (white paper steel) is a wonderful steel, but it definitely wants to be treated differently than a Wuesthof/Zwilling etc.

 

[UnknownVT]

Many thanks for some great and informative replies.

Sorry for my dyslexia (or was that lexdysia?) on the spelling of Santoku -
and hence the erroneously spelt heading to this thread......
but I see others suffer from the same on my web search -
in fact I found some good information using the incorrect spelling..........

The thing I learnt is that the Santoku is a good all purpose kitchen knife for people who like to use just a single knife (but obviously being a jack of all trades it can't possibly be ideal for everything).

I once talked at length with the legendary David Boye - who suggested that an all purpose kitchen knife would be a 6" chef's knife - and that's what I ordered/bought from him - and he is right, that knife does all sorts of things in my kitchen - but my most used kitchen knife is still the old Chicago Cutlery traditional Walnut 62S - 5" utility/boning knife, and a bubinga wood handled 3" Victorinox paring knife.

I also have a "damascus" 7" chef's knife that I bought years ago from the Cutlery Shoppe - it's partially Santoku like -

The damascus sandwiched blade is thin, and extremely sharp -
BUT somewhat "too sharp" for my use (!) -
it keeps wanting to bite into the cutting board, and its use on a hard plastic cutting board - always feels like it "pings" and almost as if the blade edge is going to chip (which of course it doesn't) but because of this I don't use it that much - whereas in direct contrast the Boye 6" chef's knife gets a lot of use.

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/

 

[MikeW]

Hi! New to the forum.

Just recently purchased a Kyocera Kyotop Santoku -- both to try the blade shape and to try a ceramic knife (have not had either before)..

I find that the shape is a fairly good all arounder, but I have gravitated to using it primarily for cutting vegetables when I want to get thin/small pieces. Otherwise I go back to the chef's knife, or some other shape for other uses. The chef's knife is what I use probably 90% of the time anyway.

Still thinking about the utility of the ceramic blade -- it is still new enough that I am being extra carefull about the brittleness of the material. I hope it holds up! On the other hand, this thing is SHARP, light weight, and fun to use.

 

[ichor]

interesting stuff here....

I do like the santoku design, but not so sure about those scallops in the blade...

Buy one and slice some potatoes and you'll be a convert to the so-called "Granton" edge. It not just for slicing thin.....it simply helps keep the sliced material from sticking to the blade. Nothing's perfect, but this design makes sense and seems to work from a practical standpoint.

 

[ichor]

Anyone have anything, good or bad, to relate with regard to Kershaw's lower end "Wasabi" line of Japanese style kitchen knives?

 

[BOK]

Anyone have anything, good or bad, to relate with regard to Kershaw's lower end "Wasabi" line of Japanese style kitchen knives?

They don't hold a great edge at all and the bead blast is just a pain in the butt on a kitchen knife.