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Saws
- Thread starter Jimbo
- Start date
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Jimbo, very nice page, a nice aggressive saw is wonderful to have if you have to do any amount of bucking and are also very nice to use in felling, though for that it is nice to have a decent blade to clear limbs and such as well to knock out the back notch. The safety is very strong as one of the things that you can do with a saw is use very little force, you really can't go that light with a blade as you need a decent amount of force to actually prevent glancing, and overall you need far more control and skill.
In regards to saws in general, after using quite a few I have come to vastly prefer Japanese tooth pattern pruning saws. These teeth are tripled beveled and cut like knives rather than chisels as do the western tooth patterns. Because the teeth have such a high level of cutting ability the saws can actually be used on a very wide range of materials like rope, plastics and even cardboard. Even though you only cut on the pull, the raw sawing power is very high. To get specific, the best I have seen to date in terms of raw power is about 5 cm of blade per square cm of wood. The wood is mostly fir, pine and spruce, 1-2 year seasoned. For reference, the Trailblazer (same swede blade pattern as the above) is about 8 cm of blade per square inch of wood.
The reason that the Trailblazer is actually behind the Japanese Saw (Felco Pruner in this case), is because it is far easier to exert more force with the pruner than with the Trailblazer because of leverage issues and as you lighten the load the pruning saw easily comes ahead. Where the Swede saw blades shine is where you can apply full pressure with your off hand which means that either the wood is very large (or still standing) or you have a helper. In this case, swede saws blades should be down to about 1 cm of blade length for each square cm of wood cut (on pine, more for harder woods obviously). You can't reach that with Japanese saws, but they are not meant to be run that heavy, Swede saws blades are designed exactly for that usage.
Pruning saws are also much easier to use on small diameter wood as they start much easier. Try to cut a piece of 2x2 with a swede saws blade and by the time you have the cut started, the pruning saw has long cut it through. As well, the high cutting performance means that the cut is very clean. For example even on a coarse 9 tpi timber saw, you will get clean cuts through birch, no fraying of the bark let alone the wood.
However all that being said, traditional swede saw blades have three major advantages :
1) Durablity, if you push too hard on a Japanese blade you can bend or snap them very easily - they are not spring tempered. It takes a lot of skill to run them fast or hard, so start off slow, and on small wood.
2) Ease of sharpening, Japanese styled blades have very small teeth which are also very hard and thus difficult to sharpen.
3) They have an extreme resistance to clogging. Japanese styled pruning saws will clog up on the softer sappy woods, the harder the wood the better they run.
If you are interested, I'll send you my small Felco Pruner which works well on wood 4" and under, though I have used it on far larger wood as well. It has the most coarse pattern I have seen on a pruning saw and thus is the most aggressive. The blade however is a little under maximum as I have used it a lot, and mainly got sloppy with it a few times to see how badly it has to be abused to put a kink in it. It has been straightened, but from comparing it to past runs it is 10-20% off of optimal in terms of raw wood cutting ability, and requires more force on the draw due to the light kinks in the blade, and the wood finish is obviously more ragged.
The same rules for teeth per inch hold with these saws as with traditional western teeth. The fewer the teeth the more wood you will cut, but the most force required on the pull. The more teeth per inch, the less wood you will cut, but the easier they are to run, the smoother the finish, and the easier to start and the more versatility (the really fine ones for example cut through rope as easily as through wood).
Besides the above features, the other really important aspect is the hand and wrist strain and the induced fatigue rate. This is very low for Japanese saws both because the better ones have handles that put your hand right inline with the pull, the teeth cut more efficiently and you are only exerting yourself on the pull as the push is feather light. Consider for example survival situations where you need to conserve energy or have limited functinality due to injury or extreme cold. I am looking at a number of excellent ones from Zeta right now. They truely are a joy to use.
For reference, in regards to the numbers on wood cutting, the saw on the Rucksack for example is about 20 cm of blade to cut each square cm of wood and requires a very high load to reach that level and thus has a very high fatigue rate.
Back to the Trailblazer it has three features I really don't like :
1) Round metal handles, very poor in terms of grip security and comfort, especially in the cold. I have some tape on mine, but an actual handle would be very nice.
2) Blade is stored in side a metal tube, the contact of the saw blade off of the tube when you take it apart and put it back to gether is far more dulling than the wood cutting you do with it. The blade should really come with a thin plastic guard.
3) The frame is held together by a plastic "nut" which has to be screwed on very tight obviously. Mine shows deformation after frequent use and does not look like a long lifetime feature.
The Trailblazer has optinal metal and bone saw blades, though I have not used either.
-Cliff
In regards to saws in general, after using quite a few I have come to vastly prefer Japanese tooth pattern pruning saws. These teeth are tripled beveled and cut like knives rather than chisels as do the western tooth patterns. Because the teeth have such a high level of cutting ability the saws can actually be used on a very wide range of materials like rope, plastics and even cardboard. Even though you only cut on the pull, the raw sawing power is very high. To get specific, the best I have seen to date in terms of raw power is about 5 cm of blade per square cm of wood. The wood is mostly fir, pine and spruce, 1-2 year seasoned. For reference, the Trailblazer (same swede blade pattern as the above) is about 8 cm of blade per square inch of wood.
The reason that the Trailblazer is actually behind the Japanese Saw (Felco Pruner in this case), is because it is far easier to exert more force with the pruner than with the Trailblazer because of leverage issues and as you lighten the load the pruning saw easily comes ahead. Where the Swede saw blades shine is where you can apply full pressure with your off hand which means that either the wood is very large (or still standing) or you have a helper. In this case, swede saws blades should be down to about 1 cm of blade length for each square cm of wood cut (on pine, more for harder woods obviously). You can't reach that with Japanese saws, but they are not meant to be run that heavy, Swede saws blades are designed exactly for that usage.
Pruning saws are also much easier to use on small diameter wood as they start much easier. Try to cut a piece of 2x2 with a swede saws blade and by the time you have the cut started, the pruning saw has long cut it through. As well, the high cutting performance means that the cut is very clean. For example even on a coarse 9 tpi timber saw, you will get clean cuts through birch, no fraying of the bark let alone the wood.
However all that being said, traditional swede saw blades have three major advantages :
1) Durablity, if you push too hard on a Japanese blade you can bend or snap them very easily - they are not spring tempered. It takes a lot of skill to run them fast or hard, so start off slow, and on small wood.
2) Ease of sharpening, Japanese styled blades have very small teeth which are also very hard and thus difficult to sharpen.
3) They have an extreme resistance to clogging. Japanese styled pruning saws will clog up on the softer sappy woods, the harder the wood the better they run.
If you are interested, I'll send you my small Felco Pruner which works well on wood 4" and under, though I have used it on far larger wood as well. It has the most coarse pattern I have seen on a pruning saw and thus is the most aggressive. The blade however is a little under maximum as I have used it a lot, and mainly got sloppy with it a few times to see how badly it has to be abused to put a kink in it. It has been straightened, but from comparing it to past runs it is 10-20% off of optimal in terms of raw wood cutting ability, and requires more force on the draw due to the light kinks in the blade, and the wood finish is obviously more ragged.
The same rules for teeth per inch hold with these saws as with traditional western teeth. The fewer the teeth the more wood you will cut, but the most force required on the pull. The more teeth per inch, the less wood you will cut, but the easier they are to run, the smoother the finish, and the easier to start and the more versatility (the really fine ones for example cut through rope as easily as through wood).
Besides the above features, the other really important aspect is the hand and wrist strain and the induced fatigue rate. This is very low for Japanese saws both because the better ones have handles that put your hand right inline with the pull, the teeth cut more efficiently and you are only exerting yourself on the pull as the push is feather light. Consider for example survival situations where you need to conserve energy or have limited functinality due to injury or extreme cold. I am looking at a number of excellent ones from Zeta right now. They truely are a joy to use.
For reference, in regards to the numbers on wood cutting, the saw on the Rucksack for example is about 20 cm of blade to cut each square cm of wood and requires a very high load to reach that level and thus has a very high fatigue rate.
Back to the Trailblazer it has three features I really don't like :
1) Round metal handles, very poor in terms of grip security and comfort, especially in the cold. I have some tape on mine, but an actual handle would be very nice.
2) Blade is stored in side a metal tube, the contact of the saw blade off of the tube when you take it apart and put it back to gether is far more dulling than the wood cutting you do with it. The blade should really come with a thin plastic guard.
3) The frame is held together by a plastic "nut" which has to be screwed on very tight obviously. Mine shows deformation after frequent use and does not look like a long lifetime feature.
The Trailblazer has optinal metal and bone saw blades, though I have not used either.
-Cliff
Hi Cliff!
Do you ever do saws here!
Pictures of the Trailblazer saw are here:
Trailblazer
so that everyone can see the plastic spacer that you are mentioning. That weakness bothers me too, as the tensioning rod doesn't allow easy replacement, the wingnut being fixed. If you filed the thread end, you'd have to re-peen it - no big deal at home with tools but in the bush..
I'm certainly finding out about saw sharpness. I unfortunately have to go at things a lot slower because of lack of time - but that's an issue that came up for me right away. It's tempting to think that my memories of saw blades from the past is flawed and that they weren't as sharp as I remember. Maybe - but I sure remember getting some cuts from careless handling. With present blades you'd have to work at it to get a cut as the blade comes from the factory. With minor sharpening the difference in cutting ability is felt right away.
The handle on the Sawvivor sure makes the point of what you are saying about the handle on the Trailblazer - but I'm wondering how durable the covering is. In addition the Sawvivor seems to have some rubber inserts in the frame which keep the blade from dulling when stored.
I put up the pages as a starting point to get people's opinions and ideas. I should have known to come here first! I'll be getting some of those Japanese saws to compare cutting ability so that I can get a feel for what you are talking about.
I am wondering how many people sharpen their saws - I guess we'll soon find out!
Thanks again for some very insightful comments. More later as work calls...
Do you ever do saws here!
Pictures of the Trailblazer saw are here:
Trailblazer
so that everyone can see the plastic spacer that you are mentioning. That weakness bothers me too, as the tensioning rod doesn't allow easy replacement, the wingnut being fixed. If you filed the thread end, you'd have to re-peen it - no big deal at home with tools but in the bush..
I'm certainly finding out about saw sharpness. I unfortunately have to go at things a lot slower because of lack of time - but that's an issue that came up for me right away. It's tempting to think that my memories of saw blades from the past is flawed and that they weren't as sharp as I remember. Maybe - but I sure remember getting some cuts from careless handling. With present blades you'd have to work at it to get a cut as the blade comes from the factory. With minor sharpening the difference in cutting ability is felt right away.
The handle on the Sawvivor sure makes the point of what you are saying about the handle on the Trailblazer - but I'm wondering how durable the covering is. In addition the Sawvivor seems to have some rubber inserts in the frame which keep the blade from dulling when stored.
I put up the pages as a starting point to get people's opinions and ideas. I should have known to come here first! I'll be getting some of those Japanese saws to compare cutting ability so that I can get a feel for what you are talking about.
I am wondering how many people sharpen their saws - I guess we'll soon find out!
Thanks again for some very insightful comments. More later as work calls...
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
There are some pages I have planned to write as I have been doing a lot of sawing lately. Mainly I intend to comment on raw power and speed as compared to a decent chopping blade, as well as versatility and safety issues. As well the power requirement. In regards to price you hit a major point. You can buy a much better saw than blade at a low level. However saws get really expensive fast. A high level cross cut saw will run you 1000-1500$ US. The high end swede saw blades are I think 300-500$.
Some of the issues are simple, some of it isn't as obvious. A lot of it you have covered very well and I will be interested to see further details as you work with the saws. There are some details that are very critical, but may appear to be minor. For example with the Japanese saws for example some of them have a vertical taper, some do not, some have a tooth set some do not. These factors make a huge difference when you are sawing. I asked a friend of mine who went to work in Japan awhile back as a carpenter to find out why they didn't spring temper the blades. When he got back he noted that the answer he was told was that they didn't need to be if you used them right - which is true, but that is not a trivial statement, especially if you are used to western saws. Awhile back I gave one to my brother who works now as a carpenter and he broke it in minutes, old habits and all.
Baileys (they are online) have a very nice timber saw that I am definately picking up this summer. The blade is 16" long, forged and spring tempered with an extremely aggressive 5.5 tpi japanese tooth pattern. It is however $120 CAN, not cheap. They also have a nice pruning saw (6 tpi) which I am going to pick up as well, push/pull cut
http://onlinestore.forestindustry.com/baileys/images/items/608.jpg
There is a huge difference of course between a bucking and a pruning saw, both have advantages. The pruning saw is much more versatile and unless you are building a large structure you really don't need the awesome power a timber saw. I have a 30 cm, 9 tpi, timber saw and it glides through 6" seasoned wood with ease, while that might sound small, I would not want to cut much above that in any kind of survival situation for many reasons.
Baileys by the way also has Tuatahi axes and saws, competition and working class. The working class version of the 5lbs racing axe is $300 CN, I think that is a definate buy this summer. I don't have much interest in the cross cut saws as we don't have much large wood around here anymore.
Back to the Trailblazer, the other thing that I really don't like about it is that if you oil the blade it is near impossible to prevent it from getting on your hand and then you have to try to saw with a metal tube that is oiled - not fun. This really should come with a blade guard.
In regards to saw teeth, these should come very sharp, just as you noted easily enough to cut your skin. I was oiling one the other day and got distracted while I was doing the teeth and cut right into the pad of my index finger. I never felt it, nor even noticed it until much later. I had 5 shallow cuts, never drew blood which was lucky. While I do sharpen saw swede saws blades as well as traditional buck saw patterns (which I would not use unless forced), I would not be pleased if I bought one and it was not sharp NIB. With a knife this isn't much of a problem, but I really would not want to have to sharpen a 40" saw blade right away.
-Cliff
Some of the issues are simple, some of it isn't as obvious. A lot of it you have covered very well and I will be interested to see further details as you work with the saws. There are some details that are very critical, but may appear to be minor. For example with the Japanese saws for example some of them have a vertical taper, some do not, some have a tooth set some do not. These factors make a huge difference when you are sawing. I asked a friend of mine who went to work in Japan awhile back as a carpenter to find out why they didn't spring temper the blades. When he got back he noted that the answer he was told was that they didn't need to be if you used them right - which is true, but that is not a trivial statement, especially if you are used to western saws. Awhile back I gave one to my brother who works now as a carpenter and he broke it in minutes, old habits and all.
Baileys (they are online) have a very nice timber saw that I am definately picking up this summer. The blade is 16" long, forged and spring tempered with an extremely aggressive 5.5 tpi japanese tooth pattern. It is however $120 CAN, not cheap. They also have a nice pruning saw (6 tpi) which I am going to pick up as well, push/pull cut
http://onlinestore.forestindustry.com/baileys/images/items/608.jpg
There is a huge difference of course between a bucking and a pruning saw, both have advantages. The pruning saw is much more versatile and unless you are building a large structure you really don't need the awesome power a timber saw. I have a 30 cm, 9 tpi, timber saw and it glides through 6" seasoned wood with ease, while that might sound small, I would not want to cut much above that in any kind of survival situation for many reasons.
Baileys by the way also has Tuatahi axes and saws, competition and working class. The working class version of the 5lbs racing axe is $300 CN, I think that is a definate buy this summer. I don't have much interest in the cross cut saws as we don't have much large wood around here anymore.
Back to the Trailblazer, the other thing that I really don't like about it is that if you oil the blade it is near impossible to prevent it from getting on your hand and then you have to try to saw with a metal tube that is oiled - not fun. This really should come with a blade guard.
In regards to saw teeth, these should come very sharp, just as you noted easily enough to cut your skin. I was oiling one the other day and got distracted while I was doing the teeth and cut right into the pad of my index finger. I never felt it, nor even noticed it until much later. I had 5 shallow cuts, never drew blood which was lucky. While I do sharpen saw swede saws blades as well as traditional buck saw patterns (which I would not use unless forced), I would not be pleased if I bought one and it was not sharp NIB. With a knife this isn't much of a problem, but I really would not want to have to sharpen a 40" saw blade right away.
-Cliff
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2001
- Messages
- 1,385
Cliff,
I've been eyeing that Tuatahi five foot saw for a year or so. When I get ready to relocate to Alaska, I may have to spring for it. You can buy a decent chainsaw for not much more, but the Tuatahi would be useful in wilderness areas where motorized saws aren't permitted. At least that's the best justification I could come up with!
I have been looking for a four foot or larger bowsaw without success. I have a three footer but my long arms will allow for a longer stroke than that. I've seen some big bowsaws in Whitehorse, Yukon and a couple towns in Alaska but they were old units. Do you (or anyone else) know of a source for new bowsaws that are 48" or longer?
Thanks very much.
I've been eyeing that Tuatahi five foot saw for a year or so. When I get ready to relocate to Alaska, I may have to spring for it. You can buy a decent chainsaw for not much more, but the Tuatahi would be useful in wilderness areas where motorized saws aren't permitted. At least that's the best justification I could come up with!
I have been looking for a four foot or larger bowsaw without success. I have a three footer but my long arms will allow for a longer stroke than that. I've seen some big bowsaws in Whitehorse, Yukon and a couple towns in Alaska but they were old units. Do you (or anyone else) know of a source for new bowsaws that are 48" or longer?
Thanks very much.
The front end to Bailey's is here:
Baileys
You then follow the links to US or Canadian stores. Why should I be the only one drooling over those axes and saws.. I think I'm going to have to starve the grand-kids and get that saw just to see what a real saw can do.
I doubt that I'll be able to get one of those competition axes for some time - but you'll surely enjoy one. Well maybe. It just might take all the challenge out of chopping little stuff like 2x4's - and once people know that you can swing one of those for half a day, everybody will be too scared to criticise your reviews.
Baileys
You then follow the links to US or Canadian stores. Why should I be the only one drooling over those axes and saws.. I think I'm going to have to starve the grand-kids and get that saw just to see what a real saw can do.
I doubt that I'll be able to get one of those competition axes for some time - but you'll surely enjoy one. Well maybe. It just might take all the challenge out of chopping little stuff like 2x4's - and once people know that you can swing one of those for half a day, everybody will be too scared to criticise your reviews.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
DWK, I would really like to get that larger saw as well, but it would really go to waste here now. I think out of this years winters wood only a dozen sticks were 12" or more, the vast majority were 8" and under. A generation or so ago though it would have been excellent as the wood then was 12-24" on average.
I am fairly curious about the teeth patterns they use on the high end saws, but at $1000 a shot, experimenting would be a bit costly. We have some top quality saw makers in Canada though, I might try to talk to them later on once I know more about the tooth patterns and can ask sensible questions.
In regards to large bow saws, I am sure you can get them as they used to me much larger than the ones that are common in hardware stores now. I think competiton ones are 42", so you should get some leads there, but I am fairly sure they can get larger still.
Jimbo, yes, I have been looking at some of saws and axes for some time, I meant to post up a link sooner. I am really interested in the racing axe as I am very curious how it compares to a more traditional felling axe like the Bruks, of course felling profiles differ all over the place. But the Bruks pattern is very similar to what used to be used here. Something else to look at are the books and videos they have on forestry. One really striking poster shows the felling of a giant redwood that was seven feet in diameter at 150 feet off of the ground.
-Cliff
I am fairly curious about the teeth patterns they use on the high end saws, but at $1000 a shot, experimenting would be a bit costly. We have some top quality saw makers in Canada though, I might try to talk to them later on once I know more about the tooth patterns and can ask sensible questions.
In regards to large bow saws, I am sure you can get them as they used to me much larger than the ones that are common in hardware stores now. I think competiton ones are 42", so you should get some leads there, but I am fairly sure they can get larger still.
Jimbo, yes, I have been looking at some of saws and axes for some time, I meant to post up a link sooner. I am really interested in the racing axe as I am very curious how it compares to a more traditional felling axe like the Bruks, of course felling profiles differ all over the place. But the Bruks pattern is very similar to what used to be used here. Something else to look at are the books and videos they have on forestry. One really striking poster shows the felling of a giant redwood that was seven feet in diameter at 150 feet off of the ground.
-Cliff
Do you have a large axe such as the Hults 2kg? It's quite the elephant gun of axes and I believe is used in some casual competitions for people not willing to go to the expense of those racing axes.
We're sure not letting you near our last remaining giant (Sitka) spruce!
Cliff, do you see any issues with the plastic securing blocks on the end of the trailblazer blades?
We're sure not letting you near our last remaining giant (Sitka) spruce!
Cliff, do you see any issues with the plastic securing blocks on the end of the trailblazer blades?
Cliff Stamp
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No, about how much to the Hults run? I noted that it is described for use on hardwood (from your page), so it might be a bit overbuilt for around here. How is the bit geometry compared to the GB? Is it a huge amount thicker?
In regards to the plastic end locks on the saw blade. I figured these might be a problem at first, but unlike the plastic bar stop, they are well supported when they are locked in place and thus they don't tend to smear out. Mine don't look unchanged from when they were NIB.
Speaking of saw teeth, there are a number of western saws that have japanese teeth, but set in the opposite direction so they cut on the push. Since you can lean into it with the push, and thus exert far more force, they will also outcut even the most aggressive Japanese saws. The "Barracuda" is one such brand, there are a few others. The teeth are also impulse hardened, and cannot be sharpened with a file.
Some of the brands have "sharpening replacement policies", which means you can buy a new one for 1/2 price when your old ones get dull. Assuming you are just cutting wood, this takes a lond time (unless its particle board and even that takes quite awhile). You don't wear out a rasp for example every few weeks. I would be curious if the policy covers tooth damage which is one the main causes of hand saw wear in construction. Then again at ~6 tpi, the individual teeth are quite robust.
-Cliff
In regards to the plastic end locks on the saw blade. I figured these might be a problem at first, but unlike the plastic bar stop, they are well supported when they are locked in place and thus they don't tend to smear out. Mine don't look unchanged from when they were NIB.
Speaking of saw teeth, there are a number of western saws that have japanese teeth, but set in the opposite direction so they cut on the push. Since you can lean into it with the push, and thus exert far more force, they will also outcut even the most aggressive Japanese saws. The "Barracuda" is one such brand, there are a few others. The teeth are also impulse hardened, and cannot be sharpened with a file.
Some of the brands have "sharpening replacement policies", which means you can buy a new one for 1/2 price when your old ones get dull. Assuming you are just cutting wood, this takes a lond time (unless its particle board and even that takes quite awhile). You don't wear out a rasp for example every few weeks. I would be curious if the policy covers tooth damage which is one the main causes of hand saw wear in construction. Then again at ~6 tpi, the individual teeth are quite robust.
-Cliff
Cliff Stamp
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Here are the other saws I was thinking of :
http://www.garrettwade.com/jump.jsp...MainCat=10000&iSubCat=10017&iProductID=105610
-Cliff
http://www.garrettwade.com/jump.jsp...MainCat=10000&iSubCat=10017&iProductID=105610
-Cliff
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2001
- Messages
- 1,385
I've got one of those curved pruners (not sure it's a Wade) in about 22" length. It's great for camping situations where all the wood on the ground is wet/rotting. You can trim some dead limbs off trees with minimal effort. Just button your collar unless you want a lot of sawdust down your shirt---mine throws it around a bit and it's hard to dodge it all.