Scandinavian knives

[Thomas Linton]

Form time to time, questions come up about the "Scandi grind."

I have previously posted that Scandivanian makers don't seem to think this is a big deal. Heck, Scandinavian's don't agree on what a "Scandi grind" is exactly. But let them speak for themselves:

(From Scandinavian Knife Forum at BritishBlades.Com)

Thread 1

Trond
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bergen NORWAY
Age: 43

Sharpening a Scandi knife
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In this post i refer to a traditional blade with a single slightly hollow grind as Scandi grind. (allthough i know there is both flat and flat with a secondary bevel Scandi grind.

. . .

[Another poster in same thread]:

Is the traditional scandi hollow grind hollow because the knives are ground on large, round stone wheels?
__________________
Dave Barker
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kristiansund NORWAY
Age: 37

yes!

SOURCE: http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3628&page=3&highlight=scandi+grind
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Thread 2

EdgePal
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sweden, Ostersund
Age: 63

The traditional Scandinavian knife
________________________________________
. . .

About Scandi grind and secondary bevel.

The principle is that a knife only used for woodwork does not have a secondary bevel. It needs to be very sharp and it needs to hold a low sharpening angle.

If you use your knifes for other things (and wood sometimes), you shall use a secondary bevel.

The secondary bevels angle is depending on how just you are using your knife – and to what.

The secondary bevel shall be between 1-3 degrees above primarily bevel. It shall be about 2-3 tens of an mm wide = when you can se this bevel with your eye, stop grinding!

When you use the knife it will be dull. When you sharpen your knife, you sharpen only the secondary bevel. This make the secondary bevel be wider and wider. When it have grow to about 6 tens of a mm – the knife feels dull what ever you do with it – then you must grind the primarily bevel so that the secondary bevel is back to 2-3 tens of a mm, then the edge is sharp again.

If you like to have a secondary bevel on your knife, start with 2 degrees angle above the primarily bevel. If this feels nice for you and the edge is holding about 10 times longer compare to no secondary bevel, keep it. If you need a little sharper edge, go down to 1 or 1,5 degree, or, if you like to have an edge who holds very long time, go up to 2,5 or 3 degrees secondary bevel.

You “balance” the angle in the secondary bevel after your way of using the knife it is a personal thing.
. . .

To sharpen Scandi grind:
Sharpen the secondary bevel before its gets dull.
If you wait until the edge is real dull, you must take away a lot of material from the blade to get it sharp again. If you sharpen it before its gets dull you only take away 1/1000 parts of a mm every time. Compare this with sharpen away up to a half mm when the edge is real dull…

This is what I call maintaining sharpening. You just let the sharpener slide along the edge 3-4 times without pressure, that is all – and your knife never gets dull. The maintaining sharpening is made in about 10 –15 seconds.

So, also secondary bevel is a very old Scandi traditional type of edge.

Thomas

. . .
Tvidivr
A bit dusty
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Norway
Age: 41
Good post. Have some rep
Same thing here in Norway where knives are sharpened same way. Once you see the very small secondary bevel, it's time to regrind.
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Thread 3


EdgePal
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sweden, Ostersund
Age: 63

Knifes in Scandinavia are as tools, very old, thousands of years…

[Beautiful photographs omitted]
Shot at 2007-11-28

. . .
I can se a tradition here, cant you guys?

Scandinavian edges have by some foreign people, = not Scandinavians, decided to be flat - without secondary bevel - but they did not know so much about Scandinavian knife traditions because here, nearly all knifes have flat edges with a very small secondary bevel, or are slightly convex edges (belt knifes) – and just a few knifes was made hollow when the turning grinding wheel come in the beginning of the dark ages.

When the turning grinding wheel come it become popular to make hollow edges – but it is harder, and more costly, to make hollow edges so they are also more expensive…

95% of the people here could not afford a turning-grinding wheel, they sharpen their knifes by freehand on sandstone sharpeners who become hollow very fast - and please - try to make a flat edge with a concave sharpener…then you know…

So, hollow edges was for rich people and fancy knifes for many years. First when the industry could mass-produce them normal people could afford to by them, and some people try them. Today they are rare here - the flat edge with a small secondary bevel is the most popular type of edge here – as always.

Thomas
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Thread 4

Visit to knife-making shop in Poropuukko (Finland, Feb. 07) Nice pictures.
“What I found interesting was that nearly all the puukkos & Leukus I saw at the shop or in the hands of our guide had small secondary bevels - always a subject of much debate.”

Thread 5

Sajuma
Contributing Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by TLM
A fully flat sharpening is quite OK when cutting is the primary work. If wood whittling is to be done I prefer a very slightly convex sharpening, that gives you better control.

TLM

Me too but that's because were Finns...Finnish blades normally dont have fully flat bevels but a secondary "micro bevel". Have a good Midsummer or should I say: Hyvaa Juhannusta!!

Juha
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So maybe when you post about a "Scandi grind," you might specify which "Scandi grind" you mean. Or not. Suit yourself. :thumbup:

 

[cotdt]

Everybody is just trying to sow chaos and confusion. I'm pretty sure most people agree that a Scandi grind is any single-bevel grind on a flat blade. There is no secondary bevel, or convex, or hollow grind.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Let me get this straight. "Everybody" is trying to "sow chaos and confusion." You know, thinking "everyone" is out to get you is suggestive.

Do you think all these Scandinavian makers, including the moderator of the Scandinavian knife forum, and the non-Scandinavians who agree with them, are in a conspiracy to mislead? To what end? To make you unhappy?

Lighten up. It's just knives.

Buy whatever you like.

Call them whatever you like. Maybe "Ralph."

Geez.

 

[fujita yuji]

What said about secondary bevel in the OP is quite true.
Sub-milli to micro secondary bevel on the very cutting edge is good for making the
cutting edge stable and tough without sacrificing cutting ability.
I think it is quite a well known technique in the sharpening of various cutting tools.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Dōmo arigatō.

 

[me2]

Only when you get to a scandi edge with a blade of M2 at 65 HRc can you really begin to appreciate the benefits of quick sharpening that a micro bevel can add to this grind style. If it gets to big, like beyond maybe 1/64" its time go back to the belt sander.

 

[Ramm9]

So maybe when you post about a "Scandi grind," you might specify which "Scandi grind" you mean.

Yes, both a maker and a buyer need to be very clear what they are talking about. As posted in another thread, a maker here took back and reworked more than one knife because his idea of a "Scandi" grind was different than his customers.

"The Scandinavian Grind is a wide flat bevel that runs to the edge of the blade There is no significant secondary bevel. The angle is engineered to match the quality of the steel and intended use. The result is a very keen edge, which is only slightly less durable than a similar Moran profile." (Ragnar - http://www.ragweedforge.com/grind.html

A micro bevel is another thing. Still, if there is going to be one I personally would rather do it myself.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

A saber grind with no secondary bevel is fine for controlled carving, say, of wood. But why would you use an edge like that for a camp knife where you could hit a knot when chopping, or for processing game where you could hit a bone? Even a traditional Scandinavian knife will do better with a secondary bevel in these cases.

 

[A.L.]

If you ask finnish puukko makers, they will disagree with most cerainty. Puukko _alway_ has no secondary bewel. Might be different with factory made, who knows, but I've never seen micros.

 

[fujita yuji]

Maintenance Board has a micro bevel sticky thread.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634739

I can't believe Scandinavian makers don't know/use micro bevel.
It's quite well known and very useful.

 

[PatriotDan]

I can't believe Scandinavian makers don't know/use micro bevel. It's quite well known and very useful.

They do. Same goes for finnish puukkos also, not only scandinavian knives.

About the term "scandi grind". In Finland that term is not well known at all. You will not easily find older puukkosmiths that would understand the term "scandi grind". Even nowadays those familiar with the internet may or may not know the term. Those dealt with international customers are likely to know the term. In Finland specifically, Colloquial terms "Puukko grind" and "leuku grind" (no, they're not the same) would be understood by everyone. "Scandi grind" not, it's a foreign term.

Scandi grind goes with the issue of bundling all scandinavian and finnish knives and their grinds in one category. a great injustice to the variety of knives and edged tools in general that exists in the area if we talk of knife culture. As a knife enthusiast, I would never go and say Mora puukko, Helle puukko or Brusletto puukko but the random person not familiar with knives might say "Mora puukko" or "Mora" meaning a knife... Big deal.

Finally, in my opinion a blade with a scandi grind (as it refers to a saber grind typical of northern countries) without and with a microbevel as it's done at the end of sharpening process in the northern countries is still a scandi grind.

 

[cotdt]

There are Scandinavian knives with convex edges and microbevels, but the Scandi grind refers to a specific grind:

"The Scandi grind has no secondary bevel and the grind proceeds to a zero edge. These knives can be made the sharpest of all and are also easy to resharpen. When sharpening a Scandanavian grind, the blade is laid upon the stone without tilting or raising and the entire bevel is worked at once. The edge is more delicate as it is thinner, but the advantage in sharpness makes up for it unless harder use is needed."

Source: http://www.knivestown.com/ktown/blade_grinds.asp

I'm not sure they are the sharpest, but there you have it.

 

[Ben Dover]

There are Scandinavian knives with convex edges and microbevels, but the Scandi grind refers to a specific grind:

"The Scandi grind has no secondary bevel and the grind proceeds to a zero edge. These knives can be made the sharpest of all and are also easy to resharpen. When sharpening a Scandanavian grind, the blade is laid upon the stone without tilting or raising and the entire bevel is worked at once. The edge is more delicate as it is thinner, but the advantage in sharpness makes up for it unless harder use is needed."

Source: http://www.knivestown.com/ktown/blade_grinds.asp

I'm not sure they are the sharpest, but there you have it.

That's pretty much always been my iunderstanding of the Scandi grind. +1 :thumbup:

For a person that sharpens on a guided device like the Edge-Pro or Eze-Sharp, the secondary bevel is okay, but for the person free hand sharpening on a stone, the traditional Scandi grind has a big advantage, IMHO.

 

[Thomas Linton]

If you ask finnish puukko makers, they will disagree with most cerainty. Puukko _alway_ has no secondary bewel. Might be different with factory made, who knows, but I've never seen micros.

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Thread 4

Visit to knife-making shop in Poropuukko (Finland, Feb. 07) Nice pictures.
“What I found interesting was that nearly all the puukkos & Leukus I saw at the shop or in the hands of our guide had small secondary bevels - always a subject of much debate.”

 

[A.L.]

Editing out, another drunken rant, another yellow card

 

[Teague]

I LOVE Scandinavian knives!!! I've never owned a bad one. And, they're priced right too!

 

[A.L.]

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Thread 4

Visit to knife-making shop in Poropuukko (Finland, Feb. 07) Nice pictures.
“What I found interesting was that nearly all the puukkos & Leukus I saw at the shop or in the hands of our guide had small secondary bevels - always a subject of much debate.”

Just wanted to quote this. I've never heard of poropuukko's. It's possible that some factory made or atleast in some form mass made puukkos have secondary bevel. Those are propably the tourist trash knives that need the bevel in order to last use atleast somehow. But like I said, ask a finn about what grind puukko has and he says it's the single bevel grind (or like Dan said, puukko grind).

 

[fujita yuji]

They do. Same goes for finnish puukkos also, not only scandinavian knives.

About the term "scandi grind". In Finland that term is not well known at all. You will not easily find older puukkosmiths that would understand the term "scandi grind". Even nowadays those familiar with the internet may or may not know the term. Those dealt with international customers are likely to know the term. In Finland specifically, Colloquial terms "Puukko grind" and "leuku grind" (no, they're not the same) would be understood by everyone. "Scandi grind" not, it's a foreign term.

Scandi grind goes with the issue of bundling all scandinavian and finnish knives and their grinds in one category. a great injustice to the variety of knives and edged tools in general that exists in the area if we talk of knife culture. As a knife enthusiast, I would not never go and say Mora puukko, Helle puukko or Brusletto puukko but the random person not familiar with knives might say "Mora puukko" or "Mora" meaning a knife... Big deal.

Finally, in my opinion a blade with a scandi grind (as it refers to a saber grind typical of northern countries) without and with a microbevel as it's done at the end of sharpening process in the northern countries is still a scandi grind.

Well said about the term "Scandi".
And honestly I believed if not all but at least some of them use microbevel.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Just wanted to quote this. I've never heard of poropuukko's.

Poropuukko OY 1978 -

Poropuukko
www.poropuukko.fi/
Kotisivun kielet: suomi
Ounastie 1780, 99410 VUONTISJÄRVI
GSM 040-7010353

Pretty far north.

(Picture below is from their site)

It's possible that some factory made or atleast in some form mass made puukkos have secondary bevel. Those are propably the tourist trash knives that need the bevel in order to last use atleast somehow.

I have IIsakki's and Roselli's and several others made (I think) with Lauri blades with various brands, including Kellam and Harri Merimaa. All came with a secondary bevel. I didn't think of them as "tourist trash," but if thay are "trash" I can only dream of what a "real" Finnish puukko is like.

Or try this. Call the secondary bevel a "micro bevel" or "polished edge" -- or "Ralph" -- if that suits better.

I already noted the BushcraftUK comparitive test where an IIsakki won -- with a secondary bevel that the guy who ran the test removed AFTER it won the test. He couldn't stand Ralph.

As for your original post, I am not "dissing" Finnish knives. I love those I have.

Ragnar, who has little motive to "diss" Finnish knives, says:

Iisakki Järvenpää is one of the leading suppliers of traditional knives in Finland. The knives are of high carbon or AISI 420 stainless and tempered to 57-58 on the Rockwell Scale. Iisakki Järvenpää combines traditional styles with modern production methods to provide outstanding values. The blades are well ground and they are supplied with sturdy functional sheaths.

They are often ground with a very slight secondary bevel. This gives a stronger edge, but one which is not as keen as a single bevel. For general work this is ideal, but if you like your knives really sharp, you may want to sharpen it before use. Just follow the sharpening instructions until you can no longer see the glint of the secondary bevel. This is a chore, but you only have to do it once. These knives are so good, and so reasonably priced, that it is well worth the effort. On the other hand, if you are a hunter, and may be cutting cartilage or other tough materials, you may want a slight secondary bevel.

http://www.ragweedforge.com/FinnishKnifeCatalog.htmlDear Tom,

Another insight from a maker:

If you are looking for flat bevel blades with no secondary micro bevel, you have to look for Noggin or Swedish blades. Finns dont use them often. One could find some in west coast of Finland (Swedish infuense ) but even in there it's rare.

So dont go and remove the second bevel in Finn blades if it's not really nessecery. It will mess up the preformanse of the blade. :

And now some personel views:
Maybe one of the reasons why Finns have mikrobeveli is that you kan "fine tune" your blade to do differend jobs. Mainly Finns kcut and karve woodi with Puukko. Differend woodis have differend karving "angles" with a Puukko you kan "adjust" the sharpening angle and this might help to karve and kut the woodi with more kontrolli. This also applies when kutting meati, leatheri and other stuffi with same blade.

Jussi

"Jussi" is Jussi Raussi, a knifemaker from Finland
www.jrpuukko.fi

I think he, too, has little motive to "diss" Finnish knives.

 

[A.L.]

Fine. This is getting a bit over the top for me.