Schatt & Morgan (Queen) ATS-34 vs 420HC

quattromori

quattromori

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May 7, 2011
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Hi folks!
I'm about to pull the trigger on my second knife acquisition for 2016 (I just need to sell a couple knives this upcoming week).
I'd like to get some feedback, and possibly comparison, about the two steels mentioned, in knives produced by Queen in their S&M line.
As a general thought, ATS-34 is a "better" steel...but other factors might come into play, such as HT and blade grind (not edge grind - I will sharpen the knife anyway), so I'm open to your thoughts and insights.
Thank you in advance for your help :)

Fausto
:cool:
 
I have had a few of the File&Wire knives that use the ATS-34 steel. The heat treat and overall quality of the knives has been good. I have liked the full flat ground blades but did not care for the saber-type grind - I just didn't think it cut as well as the flat ground.
 
Thank you for your insight. And yes, I should have specified I'm interested in FFG blades.
I tend to avoid saber ground blades no matter the steel, blade shape or pattern :p

Fausto
:cool:
 
In order for ATS34 to perform worse than 420HC, the heat treat would have to be absolutely terrible. Queen is still outsourcing their heat treat to Peters, I believe. Peters has an excellent reputation for heat treating blade steel.
 
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I have a Case in Tru-Sharp which generally agreed to be 420HC and a Tuna Valley (Queen) in 154cm (ATS 34) by another name as well as CSC in 14-4cromo. Having used both a fair bit, I think you'll enjoy ATS 34, it is really top notch. If I had my druthers all my pocket knives would be one of the 154CM type steels. My Peanut's 420HC takes a very keen edge almost immediately and is butter soft. Edge retention is noticeably less than any of my other knives. However if there's a knife that catches your eye in 420HC, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it. Steel isn't everything.
 
I have found it takes longer to put an edge on my S&M ATS-34 bladed knives than it does to put an edge on my Queen D2 blades. And that is usually with better edge grinds to start with on the S&Ms. Their ATS-34 is hard stuff, and holds an edge extremely well.
 
black mamba said:
I have found it takes longer to put an edge on my S&M ATS-34 bladed knives than it does to put an edge on my Queen D2 blades. And that is usually with better edge grinds to start with on the S&Ms. Their ATS-34 is hard stuff, and holds an edge extremely well.
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S&M 420HC is a great and simple SS, that sharpens easily and hold an edge well
But the S&M ATS-34 is light year ahead of the 420HC

The S&M ATS-34 takes a finer edge than the D2
The edge feels closer to 1095, but hold its edge much longer

A fine steel treated well
Does well on the larger penknives of F&W

 
black mamba said:
I have found it takes longer to put an edge on my S&M ATS-34 bladed knives than it does to put an edge on my Queen D2 blades. And that is usually with better edge grinds to start with on the S&Ms. Their ATS-34 is hard stuff, and holds an edge extremely well.
Click to expand...

I've wondered if anybody had ever noticed that too. ;)

I don't have any of the S&M knives, but I've found that to be true with most/all of the ATS-34 blades I've ever sharpened, including custom knives, A.G. Russell, Klotzli and others; especially when they're taken higher in hardness (~60+ RC). Real tenacious burrs, even at that high hardness, where most burrs on other steels would more easily break off. I seem to keep noticing ATS-34 seems to respond better to a more polished finish in the end; coarser finishes on it don't seem to do 'hair-popping' as well (420HC does that very well, BTW). A denim strop with aluminum oxide compound (usually 'white' compounds) takes the burrs off more effectively, while polishing it and getting it to hair-popping very easily, once it's apexed on the hones.

Even though D2 has a reputation for being difficult to sharpen, it responds very easily and quickly to the right tools (meaning diamond & SiC especially). With ATS-34, it really seems to need more finagling/finesse, even when the tools are more than enough for the job. BUT, if/when it finally responds, I've always noticed it holds up well. It just takes much longer to tweak it to where I like it, especially if the edge needs a lot of thinning.


David
 
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Just to be sure, that 420HC is just stainless steel tho, its not like 1095 carbon right?
 
420HC is probably the stainless equivalent to 1095, i.e. an all purpose, relatively inexpensive, easy to work cutlery steel. IMHO, for stainless, the next jump in performance is 440C and then jump to ATS34/154CM.

My experience with S&M ATS34 is it's a great product, although I don't have their 420HC, I have TruSharp and Buck. S&M ATS34 is hard, so it takes some time to get the edge you want, but it holds that edge. Much better than the other Queen steel I have 1095, which is good but not as good. Also the mirror polish Queen puts on their S&M ATS34 looks great and holds up real well.

I've read that Queen blades treated at Peters have a P on the tang, which is not the case for S&M, I have only seen the P on t Queen knives, but I read that awhile ago.
 
Yes, 420HC is stainless. I'm not sure I would take 440C over Buck's 420HC or Opinel's Sandvik's 12c27 (which has an almost identical composition) though :)
Frank, I get your point. Sometimes, though, steel affects the blade grind as well, and that's basically my concern.
For example, D2 (which I do like indeed) is a nice steel but the fact that it's probably hard to grind often results in thicker ground blades and a less-than-ideal cutting performance.
If blade grind is equivalent, and HT is comparable in quality, then I'm sure ATS-34 beats 420HC all the way.
Also, while I'm quite aware of Case 420HC and Buck 420HC (from general consensus along with personal experience), I remembered little or nothing about Queen/S&M 420HC (I hope it's closer to Buck than to Case :rolleyes:)
Thank you for your feedback :

Fausto
:cool:
 
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mrknife said:
Just to be sure, that 420HC is just stainless steel tho, its not like 1095 carbon right?
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I'd say 'yes AND no'...

420HC is obviously different from 1095 in one sense, being stainless and having roughly half the carbon content as 1095. Less carbon means it won't or can't be hardened to the same degree as some 1095 blades are (sometimes 60+ HRC). But it's generally still capable of being hard enough (up to ~ HRC 58-59, depending on maker's heat treat) for typical tasks expected of traditional knives.

In terms of ease of upkeep & resharpening, 420HC is about as similar to good 1095 as any stainless steel could be. Very easy to get along with, using the most basic of stones or tools, and it can take very thin hair-popping edges very easily, like good 1095. I usually treat my 420HC blades exactly like my 1095 and CV blades when resharpening them, and get nearly identical results (edge fineness/sharpness, ease of sharpening) with the same effort taken. In fact, I often sharpen these steels side-by-side in the same session, when I have the particular set of tools out for the job, and directly compare results between them.


David
 
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I'm confused by 420HC, my Leatherman blades don't seem to hold an edge much better than 440A, it's a case of use once and then sharpen. The 154cm Leatherman blades are a vast improvement. It's a reason why I've been wary of the Queen S&M in 420HC.
 
Pomsbz said:
I'm confused by 420HC, my Leatherman blades don't seem to hold an edge much better than 440A, it's a case of use once and then sharpen. The 154cm Leatherman blades are a vast improvement. It's a reason why I've been wary of the Queen S&M in 420HC.
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I've noticed Leatherman's 420HC blades seem pretty soft (I have a Wave, a Super Tool and a Micra), even as compared to another reputedly 'soft' 420HC like Case's Tru-Sharp, which seems to do better. And Buck Knives' 420HC goes even a bit harder than Case's. There's a wide variation in hardness between multiple makers (this is also true with 1095 blades, BTW). I personally wouldn't judge the character of the steel itself based only on the heat treat of one maker.


David
 
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dont get me wrong, i have a whole bunch of queen, S&M in various steels, and currently giving some away on my giveaway. I love the choices, but I honestly probably couldnt sharpen half of these properly with the tools I have, (sharpmaker and lansky crock sticks/and other setup)
 
Pomsbz said:
I'm confused by 420HC, my Leatherman blades don't seem to hold an edge much better than 440A,
Click to expand...

If both are hardened to the same hardness, I'd not expect 420HC to outperform 440A.
 
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