Schloghter altogether?

D7reamers

D7reamers

Joined
Aug 29, 2001
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850
I heard someonthing quite intersting Monday.

It's about a special dualing club in Germany, which was quite something to hear about.

This type of dualing was very popular around WWI, limiting 40 passes, head shots only.

Objective?

To draw blood :eek:

The armor is a heavy leather jerkin that is worn from the top of the neck to the bottom of the torso. No masks.

The weapon is a saber with the point rounded off, and is only sharpened 2/3 of the way and I was told it was called a "Schloghter (hope I got that right) saber.

Is it acutally true? Or is someone pulling my leg?
 
I seen a news report several years ago about that club-I believe it was in a German military academy. As you mentioned the goal is to draw blood and there are no face masks but they do wear protective goggles. The members had some pretty impressive facial scars that they were very proud of.

The news report was about neo-nazis in Germany and these club members were talking to the news reporter about their fascist sympathies.
 
For decades during the 1800s and early 1900s, a "Heidleberg Dueling Scar" was considered "tres' vogue." I don't suppose it occured to the fashionable yet slightly dense Duelists of the day, that the man who administered the scar was far more impressive than the man who received it.

My son (now 21) once told me "Scars are outward signs of an extreme life."

I replied, "No son, scars are the body's way of telling you that you screwed up."

(Death is your body's way of telling you that you screwed up and will not be forgiven!)
:D
 
Personally, I think that all sports that can serious hurt people can not be real considered sports. The most of contact sports try to assure his/her apprentice's integrity like puting gloves or masks (like in fencing, boxe or kendo) and, for example, in karate tournaments if some fighter really hurts the other person he can be considered inadequate and loose the fight.
It can be interesting but I really think it is against the pourpose of the sport practical. It`s like a spar, but with humans.

:o
 
Hi All,

Schlager fencing is a German University Tradition and is a fraternity based activity.
It involves heavy protective equipment for everywhere except the top of the head which is the only target one aims for.

Fencers are not allowed to evade or move and have to rely on the weapon to defend themselves. The idea of the game is to draw blood from the other guys head until he gives up. Check out "The Secret History of the Sword" by J Christoph Amberger. He fought a number of Mensur (duels) with the schlager both winning and losing and his accounts are fascinating.
Cheers
Stu.
 
Hey Stuart,

I see that you let us some interesting topics, and I also think it could be interesting, but to me the action of drawing blood of other one is still against the pourpose of the sports practical, but it`s only my opinion (hope you don`t feel like I am against you)... The people can use heavy protection but to drop blood I personally think (I am a physician here) that it only urge violence, but (again) it`s only me.


;) ;) ;)
 
DHB-None of us replying to this thread are trying to promote these duels without protection but if the Germans want to whack each other upside the face with a sword then that will be fine with me :D
 
Hi DHB,

When you think about the probability that schlager fencing replaced duelling for real with dussaks or sabres, it looks positively civilised.

Also, although these guys have facial scars, I sincerely doubt any of them have the same type of brain damage as boxers get.

Looking at history, even relatively recent history and especially that of other cultures through 21st century eyes can be a sobering experience that does no good at all. People in different situations have different moral standards that lead to different customs and modes of behavior.
Cheers
Stu
 
Ok,

I see what you`re trying to pass, that is not a real sport, but also a cultural activity, and in this way it has a kind of beauty!!! And I agree with you in this point. And I agree it`s much better than a real duel of death...

You can call me stubborn, but I, PERSONALLY,am still thinking that it is unnecessarily agressive (why win by drawing blood, and not like fence, by touching vital parts with a protection ?). In the boxe the pourpose is not to attempt against the other person`s integrity, of course the people can really get hurt (but it`s not the pourpose), the people can also get hurt practicing ciclims, automobilism, soccer, martial arts football and other sports. I think the diference is the pourpose (hurt - not hurt)... But again it`s only my opinion.
 
Hi DHB,

I actually agree with you but I must say that sport fencing in it's modern form is a joke. All you have to do is touch the other guy a split second before he runs a blade through you. Very silly.
Cheers
Stu.
 
hi there!

the type of fencing this discuission is about is called "academic fencing" or "schlaegerfechten" (the weapon used is called a "schlaeger") or "gedecktes hiebfechten".

it has been a tradition among certain german, austrian and swiss fraternities (there´s even one fencing fraternity in the US) for about 200 years, evolving from traditional fencing.

the purpose is NOT to draw blood. there are no winners or loosers. a "mensur" can be described as a initiation ritual. you have to do it to belong to the fraternity.

in former times, a facial scar was considered to be a sign of honour, showing that the bearer was a member of a fencing fraternity, today a scar is mostly regarded as a sign of bad fencing.

academic fencing is not very dangerous, though i´ve seen some nasty scars. the last death from fencing occured in the early 30s of the 20th century, due to an infected wound.

today, there are about 300 fraternities in germany and austria, holding up this tradition. as far as i know, academic fenicng is forbidden in austria.

so much for now, i´ll be happy to answer more questions if neccessary. :)
 
Originally posted by Nash The Slash
I seen a news report several years ago about that club-I believe it was in a German military academy. As you mentioned the goal is to draw blood and there are no face masks but they do wear protective goggles. The members had some pretty impressive facial scars that they were very proud of.

The news report was about neo-nazis in Germany and these club members were talking to the news reporter about their fascist sympathies.
Click to expand...


indeed, there are some fencing fraternities, that hold nationalist views, though those are the minority.

the majority of the fencing fraternities in germany are the "corps".
the main principles of the corps are tolerance, freedom, equality and friendship.
 
An article in one of the AAFD mags (I think) that talked about this, basically in an effort to promote safety during stage combat. It did, however, mention some interesting tidbits. Like how (it has already been mentioned) dueling scars were, at one time, the height of fashion--they implied that the bearer was a gentleman of the utmost civility, liable to take insult at the slightest breach of etiquette, and prepared to demand rectification (at a sword's-point, if necessary). All of that said, many of the people with scars, as you might imagine, did not necessarily meet this criteria. Many young gentlemen would enroll in academies or fraternities simply to engage in duels and acquire scars, then drop out. Also, as it was important for the scars to be prominently placed and visible, the article mentioned a tendency to lead with the face (which it warned against doing onstage), and improperly tend the wound (by pulling it open and/or pouring red wine on it to ensure scarring). Enclosed in the article was an image of an older fencer, whose face more closely resembled a patchwork quilt than a Greek Adonis.

Oh, the point was brought up earlier that it was actually the chap who GAVE the scar that was more impressive. Sure, from today's perspective...but back then, dueling, in many people's uneducated minds, carried the unspoken implication "...to the death." Thus, if YOU walked out of the fight with a scar, the masses naturally assumed that your opponent had been carried off of the field...

:eek:

Kal
 
Anyone that wants to understand schlager dueling should try read "Dueling, The Cult Of Honor in Fin-de-Siecle Germany" by Kevin McAleer. My take on the German duel of the period was that is wasn't a matter of who won, but that you were unquestioningly willing to do it when called upon.
 
Originally posted by Steven Dick
Anyone that wants to understand schlager dueling should try read "Dueling, The Cult Of Honor in Fin-de-Siecle Germany" by Kevin McAleer. My take on the German duel of the period was that is wasn't a matter of who won, but that you were unquestioningly willing to do it when called upon.
Click to expand...

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Some people in my hometown opened up a school called the "Gulf Coast Dueling Academy" . It only stayed open for a couple of months and went out of business.

I guess they had a hard time finding anyone who wanted scars:D


Gene Gabel
 
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