Schrade (USA) "High-Carbon Stainless Steel" == 440C?

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pinnah

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Here's something I'm not finding in the FAQs or from the search function.

Was Schrade's "High-Carbon Stainless Steel" 440C?
More generally, what is known about which older Schrades used 440C?

I frequently see people referring to some older Schrades as using 440C. Here's one (love the drop point!!)
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...chrade?p=10708266&highlight=440C#post10708266

I understand that Schrade+ was 440A at first and then changed over to 420HC.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/378164-Schrade-Blade-Steels?highlight=420HC

I wonder what Schrades older "Razor Blade Stainless" was and most particularly wonder if catalog term "High-Carbon Stainless" (which was used concurrently and along side of "Razor Blade Stainless" indicates the use of 440C?

If anyone can describe which Schrades used 440C, that would really be helpful.

Here's what I'm seeing in the catalogs, which I understand may be reflective of what actually got produced.

1964
First mention of branded stainless, "Razor Blade Stainless (tm)"

1966
Full page add on the "Revolutionary New Razor Blade Stainless Knives".

1967
First mention of Uncle Henry in Schrade catalog. Made with Razor Blade Stainless.

1969
127UH Folding Bowie listed with "High-Carbon Stainless Steel"

1972
127UH and 227UH listed with "High-Carbon Stainless Steel"

1977
127UH listed with "Shrade Steel"

1978
First mention of Schrade+ stainless
 
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Tongue,

Thanks for the suggestion. As it turns out, registered users have access to the search function, which is how I found several of the links in my OP. Searches on "440C" and "high-carbon" have not led me to any of these answers. I've also read through (all 21 pages of the) FAQ and again not seen any discussion of whether the "high-carbon stainless" was 440C or any more general discussion of which knives used 440C.

Any suggestions?
 
pinnah said:
Tongue,

Thanks for the suggestion. As it turns out, registered users have access to the search function, which is how I found several of the links in my OP. Searches on "440C" and "high-carbon" have not led me to any of these answers. I've also read through (all 21 pages of the) FAQ and again not seen any discussion of whether the "high-carbon stainless" was 440C or any more general discussion of which knives used 440C.

Schrade listed the steel used in their knives as:
Schrade Old Timers used AISI 1095 high carbon steel.
Carbon .90 - 1.03 Magnesium .30 - .50 Phosphorus Max .040 Sulfur Max .050

440A or Schrade+
Sulfur .03 Carbon .60 - .74 Magnesium 1.00 Silver 1.00 Chrome 16.0 – 18.00 Molybdenum .75 Phosp. .04

What that all means I can not help, It has lost me… Ken
Click to expand...
 
Ken, right.

I'm not sure when "Schrade+" stamped knives started to appear nor when 440A was started to be used. I believe that 1978 was the first year Schrade+ was mentioned in a catalog.

So, I'm asking primarily about knives made in the 1969 to 1976 timeframe. It is around this time that some of the catalogs used both the term "razor blade stainless" (smaller knives and samplers) and "high-carbon stainless" (on bigger knives). That causes me to speculate that they were using at least 2 kinds of steel during that time and I'm wondering if "high-carbon stainless" indicates 440C?
 
pinnah said:
Ken, right.

I'm not sure when "Schrade+" stamped knives started to appear nor when 440A was started to be used. I believe that 1978 was the first year Schrade+ was mentioned in a catalog.

So, I'm asking primarily about knives made in the 1969 to 1976 timeframe. It is around this time that some of the catalogs used both the term "razor blade stainless" (smaller knives and samplers) and "high-carbon stainless" (on bigger knives). That causes me to speculate that they were using at least 2 kinds of steel during that time and I'm wondering if "high-carbon stainless" indicates 440C?
Click to expand...

They used both terms as advertising fluff, regardless as to whether it was 420 or 440. The "+", as best I can determine, referred to their heat/cryo treatment of whichever steel they were using at the time. And yes, there were 1095HC Uncle Henry knives and stainless Old Timers.
 
Codger, thanks for responding.

Just to clarify.

I don't think the question I'm asking has to do with the difference between 420 and 440. My understanding from the FAQ, is that they didn't use 420HC (under the Schrade+ label) until much later. I'm really trying to understand more about which knives used 440A and 440C in an earlier time frame (70s).

I also am pretty sure I have a handle on the differences between 1095 (sometimes called "high-carbon cutlery steel" as in the 1961 catalog) and stainless (listed as "stainless", "razor blade stainless (tm)", "high-carbon stainless", "Schrade Steel" and "Schrade+).

The 1969 catalog is a perfect example of what I'm talking about:
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/Catalogs/images/1969-SW-CATS.pdf

On the bottom of the first page, they have a set of knives labeled "Razor blade stainless", which is a trademarked name that appeared in the '64 catalog.

At the top of the third page, where they describe Uncle Henry knives...
+ The 897UH is listed as "razor blade stainless"
+ The larger 127UH is listed as "high-carbon stainless"
+ The 285UH is listed as "high-carbon cutlery steel"

"Cutlery steel" is a term that they previously used to refer to 1095, so I presume that is what is being referred to in the 285 listing.

But, that is different from the "high-carbon stainless" listing for the 127UH.

In reading the FAQ, archives and search results, it is clear to me that many collectors assert that they own Schrades made from 440C.

I've heard others insist or imply that Schrade did not use 440C at any time, only 440A and 420HC.

I think the 1969 catalog implies that Schrade was using at least 2 different flavors of stainless during that time period (long before 420HC was being used), so I'm trying to get a handle on if "high-carbon stainless" implied 440C, since 440C has a higher carbon content than 440A.

More generally, I'd like to get a handle on which knives they used 440C on.

Thanks for any light you could shed.
 
i am pretty sure the "Silver" should be Silicon. and those by the way are maximums for the percentages.


440A or Schrade+
Sulfur .03 Carbon .60 - .74 Magnesium 1.00 Silver 1.00 Chrome 16.0 – 18.00 Molybdenum .75 Phosp. .04
 
I don't think the term "razor blade stainless" referred to the type of steel used, it was a description of their new sharpening process that resulted in a double bevelled edge. I'm not sure about the sixties, but most of the stainless blades were 440a or b. Certain specialty knives such as the "Schrade Custom" version of the Loveless knife were 440C. It was all a matter of cost and supply, I'm sure with the tonage that they used monthly that they went with whatever was most cost effective in the particular thickness they required. Most all of the literature and memos refer to the steel simply as stainless, and the heat treat was the same regardless, usually resulting in a hardness of 56-59RC. The high carbon part of the equation was in reference the the heat treat process, or maybe the drawdown, which added a bit of extra carbon to the steel, or something to that effect. For example 420HC is popular in Buck knives.

Eric

PS- the "high carbon cutlery steel" likely refers to 1095, which the 285's initially started with before switching to stainless.
 
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