Seax Thrusting, Revisited (With Movies)

Dave Rishar

Dave Rishar

Joined
Oct 25, 2004
Messages
3,178
Okay, vids up.

First off: a seax thrust, edge down. Note the depth of penetration and the amount of play that the blade experiences in the can - the hole is definitely larger than the blade. The edge actually bit into the bottom of the can a bit.

Next: another seax thrust, edge up. Again, note the large hole. One thrust is statistically meaningless and I made nine or ten of them but this was the movie that turned out the best. I never managed to penetrate the back of the can but, again, that may have more to do with my technique than anything.

For comparison, here's a thrust with a 20" AK and a tulwar. Both are interesting in their own way. For a non-pointy item, the AK penetrated surprisingly deeply and while the hole wasn't any larger than the blade, that's still quite large. The tulwar surprised me the most - even though the thrust didn't connect particularly well, it left a hole almost twice as long as the blade was wide. Does the curved tip cause a phenomenon similar to the seax or was it just a lousy thrust? More testing is required.

When I accumulate enough plastic, I'll run the tests again with those. In the meantime we'll have to make do with freehanging beer cans.
 
It doesnt surprise me that edge down would work better on cans hanging from strings. Its resistant weight to the blade would come from above because of the string, while the resitant weight on a standing human would be from below because of the persons weight. If that makes sense to anyone. Im not good at describing this kind of stuff.

When you get your large bottles or milk jugs, or whatever you want to use, try doing an edge up thrust with a more underhand, upward moving motion. That would simulate the going under the breastbone and give the edge more chance to do its work.

Milk jugs definately would be a better demonstration for edge up thrusting.
 
Satori said:
Does the curved tip cause a phenomenon similar to the seax or was it just a lousy thrust?
Click to expand...
Satori I think it's the swing of the can and the follow through that's causing the larger cuts.
 
If you pause it carefully, you'll see that in the edge-down video, the can is tipped back upon impact. In the edge-up video, the point of impact of the tip is actually near the top. Your swing continues slightly upward, but the can moves up faster (from being attached to the string) - resulting in a large hole.
 
Don't take this as criticism, Satori. Just looking at the vids, face value.



for the next one, lower the "attack zone" to something more belly-height.




Generally speaking, the ABS uses free-hanging cans/bottles/etc. to test speed, instead of force. Force/strength is tested in the 2x4 cut. The point is to split the can without breaking the string. That's not necessarily needed here.

So, if you want, you could "stabilize" the can by hanging it from 3 strings instead of 1. (think inverted pyramid) That would reduce the swinging effect - which is partially hanging you up on your thrust tests.


Now, to test true penetrating ability, stack 3 cans and try to penetrate the middle one without knocking any of them off. You might not be able to get it, but it'll definitely improve your form.
 
I like these videos. Sart, can you make us one showing an AK sever a 2x4 in a single swipe to use on our wwebsite?
 
Admittedly, these are hardly scientific tests and all criticism is justified - I don't have a problem with that and welcome the advice.

The hanging can idea is for simple conveniance. It allows me to position a can at a given height, free of obstructions, fairly quickly and inexpensively. It's not really intended to affect the tests in any way but it does. My idea for the next time is to use plastic jugs that're secured to their base in some way; this should be more appropriate for what I'm trying to do.

In retrospect, we really ought to have a martial artist doing this stuff, as opposed to an enthusiastic amateur. :) Anything I swing tends to get treated as a maul or a machete.

Uncle - I'll try to get that done this week. Do we want to split it lengthwise, cut through it diagonally or just smash it in two?
 
Utilization (use) of the seax

I've been giving a lot of thought to the emplyment of the seax (you know, before they became unemployed). Many people have argued that the seax thrusts best when used edge-up. I won't argue the point. ;) However, holding the blade like that SEVERELY limits the number and types of attacks that can be performed.

The "cuts" that can be done are limited to 8 as near as I can figure:
thrust to face/throat
thrust to chest/abdomen
roundhouse stab to kidney
roundhouse stab to side of head
draw cut to groin
draw cut to back of neck
draw cut to back/underside of arm
draw cut to back of knee

sorry, forgot #9: the terrifying 1/32nd second backslash :D

Any other strikes must be made with the back edge or flat of the blade. I'm not saying this isn't possible, but this is a very limited number of attack options. Most Filipino styles have somewhere between 12 and 17 formal "cuts" and just about any exposed part of the body is fair game for a slash. This just isn't a viable option with a seax held edge-up. Most people I know would NOT want to be limited to that repetoire for a knife or sword. Fencers will disagree, but fencing takes a great deal of time to master, and is not a "rough and ready" skill. IMO.

jw
 
Guys, PLEASE dont let any of these conversations limit your thinking about actual combat. IF you need to switch hands, switch grips, edge up, edge down, point in, point out, holding it by the handle, pinching the spine, hammer with the butt, slap with the flat, scrape with the edge, pinch using the thumb and the choil, do it.
Don't limit your options in a survival situation.
 
I'm quite sure that the Saxons used the Five Points Palm Exploding Heart Technique.

Anyway, I would have.
 
jw556, I have always said it was better for THRUSTING edge up. Obviously, you cant cut with the spine, although you probably could break bones. Like Danny says, you could just change positions and do all of your missing attacks.

Remember, the people using their seaxes to fight were probably very desperate. They just wanted to make a hole in the person who was trying to make one in them. It wasn't fencing with clear lists of targets to select from. If you kill someone with a thrust to the vitals, you dont care about the other targets you missed out on.
 
I've given this some more thought. I'm not sure that we have enough information available today to determine how a seax was "properly" used. Most of what I've read points at the seax being more of a utility tool than a weapon. If I was placed in a position where I had to take on a spearman or swordsman with a seax, the technique I would probably use is to run like hell. Someone else with a sword or a spear can handle him for me.

That being said, I agree with Jeb in that the kind of combat they'd be used in would be a bit less technical in nature than, say, an 18th century rapier duel. I'm guessing that it would've been close and would've been ugly. People would be doing whatever they had to do to live. Hand-to-hand combat turns into something we don't often see in films or literature when one removes the "rules" we're accustomed to.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you're an archer and you've just expended your last arrow. You see me advancing on you with a spear. For some reason you're unable to evade me. What will you do? You'll probably grab my spear the first time I thrust it at you, assuming that I don't kill you with it. Having two hands on it I'll still retain some control of it - but you'll be able to get past the point most likely. You won't be looking for technical perfection here, you'll be looking to kill me. You'll chop, stab, and club your way to victory. When I realize that my spear is no longer useful I'll drop it and wrestle. We'll bite, punch, kick, knee, fish hook, gouge eyes, and do whatever it is that's necessary to live. Add even light armor into the mix and things become more confused, and uglier. In this regard, I agree with DIJ - the weapon is just a tool. It's the operator that's dangerous.

Which way was it held? Who the heck knows. Look at all the different ways we have to hold a knife today. Everyone has a preference, every hold has its advantages and disadvantages. Some people tend to stick with one, some switch them up. I see no reason why it wouldn't be any different back then.
 
Satori said:
I'm quite sure that the Saxons used the Five Points Palm Exploding Heart Technique.

Anyway, I would have.
Click to expand...
Naw, if we liked you we'd use the blóðörn

If'n y' don't know what is a blood-eagle: Torf-Einar and the Blood Eagle

if we didn't like you we'd get nasty.

================================
and i agree with yer last post, hold it anywhichway you can to poke a hole in the other guy before he pokes you! (running away also works really well and was the first kata taught to me by my sensei)
 
My school of fighting:

OHSHITWHATNOW RYU

Specializes in

"You won't be looking for technical perfection here, you'll be looking to kill me. You'll chop, stab, and club your way to victory. When I realize that my spear is no longer useful I'll drop it and wrestle. We'll bite, punch, kick, knee, fish hook, gouge eyes, and do whatever it is that's necessary to live. Add even light armor into the mix and things become more confused, and uglier."

There are techinques for sobbing and gasping for breath; self-urination; wrestling to no effect for what seems to be hours; why the headlock attempt when you don't know what you're doing in the first place; ridiculous thoughts in combat about your clothes; jaysusIwishitwere over defenses; and working with the warcry "*shitshitshit" to communicate with your warrior spirit.

Training is instinctive and cannot be learned through a formal process. You are one with exhaustion.


oooohhhmmmmm.





*(see much earlier thread on "what is your battle cry?")




Be well and safe.
 
Nasty said:
And just *what* would you have me to to him??? :D
Click to expand...
up to you of course, i trust you for something original and thought provoking and worthy of the challenge. creative khukuri useage might be included at your discretion.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top