Sebenza - help me resolve some issues please....

savantuk

savantuk

Joined
Sep 20, 2002
Messages
268
Hello Chaps,

I,ve had the large S'benza now for nearly a month, and have been using it. Having had time to reflect, I would like some help with some issues I have with it.

What makes this knife so expensive? I have other knives that perform equally well from BM, MOD and Microtech, all of which cost less, and are as well specified. Indeed I have also a $150 Greco Grifon Framelock, which whilst a wee bit (well a lot really) heavier, is just as sturdy, and I would trust the lock with my life.

Why bead blast the scales? They mark so easily, and are impossible to refinish, without sending the knife back.... I live in UK.

What makes the knife so desirable? It's not particularly good looking, OK, it is handsome in it's way, but not arrestingly beautiful, or 'drop dead' gorgeous like some others I own, or would like to own. The materials aren't especially rare, or hard to come by.

Don't get me wrong, the knife is great... tough, and reliable, in fact I have another on order for my son, it's just that I havent been able to 'bond' yet, like I have with my EK Commander, BM CQC7, and MT LCC, which I regard as great knives all!!

Help!!!!!!!

Incidentally, does anybody have an ATS 34 model? How does the blade compare with the BG42 and SV 30 models? Any chipping on the ATS 34? Is it worth getting one as a keeper?

Thanks,
 
As with most things, the closer the tolerances and the ability to "blueprint" an item causes the cost to go up. The knives you talk about don't have the same attention to detail- close and maybe even close enogh to some that they feel there is no difference. What are you willing to pay for that last little bit of perfection? I am sure the import duty does not help on the cost front either. The bead blast finish does develop a "patina" and although the first marks hurt, they soon develop a pleasing finish of there own. I am sure someone in the UK has a beadblaster suitable for a refinishing job if you wanted to go that route
 
First let me say there are objective issues and subjective issues. I think it's helpful to keep that in mind while discussing the attributes of any knife. It's also difficult to adress your questions because the majority of them are overly broad and ill defined.

You ask why is it so expensive? The first question I would ask in response is relative to what? Any other knife? Other high quality knives? Since you are in the UK, all sorts of taxes and import what not makes all imported knives extra expensive, correct?

Perform equally as well? Please be more specific. Cut as well? Yes, I own knives that cut very well, nearly as well as the sebenza. However as far as "well specified" do you mean "well engineered"? "Well manufactured"? "As durable?"

Here's my opinion on this, I wear our a well made spyderco in about a year of constant carry. After that there is enough blade and handle wear, blade wobble, etc. I tend to consider it "consumed".

However, I have an ATS-34 sebenza that's 6+ years old that I've sent in for a refurb. I've probably had 3 years total use over this span of time. It hasn't shown any signs of being "consumed". The only difference is now it opens more smoothly than when it was new, and I would call that "broken in". So, by that measure, it's now saving me money over a knife that may have only cost 1/3 of the original sebenza price. So if you look in the long term, these knives become less expensive, yet you continue to get a quality and satiifying use experience.


Why beadblast the scales? Why not? Yes, it shows some wear, but what handle finish doesn't? What would you reccomend instead? Given the design intent of the knife, that is, a work knife, I think it's a pretty good choice.

What makes the knife desirable? That's a subjective aesthetic question that no one can answer for anyone else. If it doesn't suit you aesthetically then it doesn't.
 
Hi savantuk,

I've had my small Sebenza for about three months now. I can see that in the long run, I will be saving money, since owning this knife has stopped my cravings for buying more and more knives in search of "The One". I've a large on order, and that will do me - I'm quite content. I guess it's put an end to knife collecting as a hobby though :)

As to bead blasting - I know exactly the chap for this. If you're interested, drop me a line.

Regards

Nigel
 
My, Aren't we wordy!!

Of course my questions were broadly based. 'Ill defined'???? Whilst not deliberate, that was the sum of my intention. If I were to make them more clearly defined, the subject matter would tend to become too technical, take up too much space, and too much of my time. My intention was merely to open a few channels for discussion.

Yes expensive. By any definition these are expensive knives. More so than the majority of top end folders, and quite a few custom pieces, especially in £stg and even in dollars.

'Perform as well??' In general terms, the performance one would expect from an EDC knife... cutting ability!! What else do you buy a knife for! Of course, one also has to take into account ease of opening, ease of use, edge holding ability, ease of sharpening, etc, etc. Engineering excellence and design are taken as read in a knife in this price range. Why do you find it necessary to be so derisory?
'Wear out a well made Spyderco in a year'?? How?? I have a JD Long that has been used daily for three years for all sorts of tasks, including cutting electrical flex, and has not been sharpened, except for the occassional touch with a croc stick, and is still extremely sharp, and essentially, as new.

'Aesthetic'... c'mon, who are you pretending to kid? Subjective, I agree, but to use the word aesthetic is a nonsense.

The tone of your reply was unwelcoming, bordering on the rude. I have only posted once before on this forum, and I feel that if more replies were like yours, I should think twice about doing so again.

Hell, I only popped in for a bit of a chat, I didn't realise that I would have to prepare myself for verbal combat in a debating chamber.

Thank you anyway, for answering my questions, even if, as I suspect, your intention was to make me look foolish, and yourself seem, and feel superior.
 
hi savantuk
this forum is fine if you have posetive things to say about a product,but if you,even slightly and unintentionly slate a product then this is what you have to expect.dont ask me why i dont understand it me self.
i wish i could answer some of you que's but i am in the same boat and still learning.
cheers
 
Chris Reeve uses the steel in his blades for a reason. They are the best in stainless steel for a knife! I prefer BG-42 over S30V for my own reasons. Both steels are exceptional. Why you would want ATS-34 over BG-42 seems strange, but to each his own.

It's really not fair to compare your true customs to the Sebenza in most peoples opinion. I personally feel there is no better folding knife anywhere on the planet for the money, or for any money for that matter. You can choose to customize/decorate the handle of the Sebbie if you wish to make it "prettier", and/or have the blade polished. The wood inlay Sebenza's are another choice.

Don't get me wrong, the knife is great... tough, and reliable, in fact I have another on order for my son
Click to expand...

You pretty much answered you own question right here! Other than a better looking version of the Sebenza, what more do you want? The Sebenza was built from the start to be a hard working knife; hence the word "Sebenza"(the Zulu word for WORK). If it's a pretty knife you want, than maybe a true custom is the way to go. I really like the looks of the Sebbie. I have several with different designs and all are great looking!
 
the subject matter would tend to become too technical, take up too much space, and too much of my time.
Click to expand...

Why would being too technical be a problem? Do you not wish to learn anything?

Too much space is problem because it takes to long to read? To download?

To much of your time? But you're free to waste other people's time by not being specific and by being afraid of being too technical or too long?

aesthetic - relating to (the enjoyment or study of) beauty, or (of an object or work of art) showing great beauty.

beauty - the quality of being pleasing, esp. to look at, or someone or something that gives great
pleasure, esp. by being looked at

The above are taken from the Cambridge online dictionary.

Therefore aesthetic has everything to do with how you like something, and then everything to do with how you like a knife.

And BTW, perhaps more on point. You can say things about the sebenza (or any knife or person), but if you are not concise, accurate or willing to debate specifics, then what's the point?
 
I merely asked a few friendly questions. They were, if you like, my musings on a month of ownership. I did not wish to start a technical debate, nor did I wish to become enmeshed in one. I wrote the post, in a light hearted tone, with my tongue very much in my cheek.

What is wrong with that? Or did I make a mistake... is this a technical forum.

My questions adressed the specifics that I wanted to discuss. No more, no less. If I had wanted further information, I would have composed my questions differently, or asked. And I certainly don't require, or even need to be taught anything by you

Please don't bother to answer this post. In doing so, I fear that your already overinflated ego will be even further massaged.

Finally, I did not say a single thing which implied criticism of the Sebenza, I merely expressed my thoughts, following a month of ownership.

Consider this.... if I disliked it, or was unhappy with it in any way, would I buy another.
 
Originally posted by savantuk


Finally, I did not say a single thing which implied criticism of the Sebenza, I merely expressed my thoughts, following a month of ownership.
Click to expand...

You said in your first post "I would like some help with some issues I have with it. " which would infer a critical comment to us in the USA - which did come in the form of saying "I have other knives that perform equally well from BM, MOD and Microtech, all of which cost less, and are as well specified. Indeed I have also a $150 Greco Grifon Framelock, which whilst a wee bit (well a lot really) heavier, is just as sturdy, and I would trust the lock with my life." Now you may have been trying to be "CHEEKY" but here in the states, and this is a U.S forum though we welcome everyone, there are times that a spat can start because of differences in culture and use of words, I think this is one of those times ... As an example if you ask for chips here with a meal you will get "crisps" and not the french fries you would be expecting. Realize that when you do come here YOU may not be understood fully as you believe, just as if I would go to the british airgun forums. I just reponded to a post made in the Busse forum where you mention going to get a "ferrett" and the guy thought you meant the weasel type animal , not the light armored scout vehicle you meant. Unless you are really sure someone is putting you down it just may be better to keep a stiff upper lip and wait. Usually if someone is being "uppity" ,etc around here everyone else see's it too.... CHEERS ! :)
 
Hello Tall Paul,

I still got the feeling I was being lectured to. This has not happened on any of the other Forae, in which I have participated. They have all been friendly, without side, or rancour.

An issue is exactly that..... something to be discussed, not a problem
_________________________________________________________________
Main Entry: 1is·sue
Pronunciation: 'i-(")shü, chiefly Southern 'i-sh&, chiefly British 'is-(")yü
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, exit, proceeds, from Middle French, from Old French, from issir to come out, go out, from Latin exire to go out, from ex- + ire to go; akin to Gothic iddja he went, Greek ienai to go, Sanskrit eti he goes
Date: 14th century
1 plural : proceeds from a source of revenue (as an estate)
2 : the action of going, coming, or flowing out : EGRESS, EMERGENCE
3 : a means or place of going out : EXIT, OUTLET
4 : OFFSPRING, PROGENY <died without issue>
5 a : a final outcome that usually constitutes a solution (as of a problem) or resolution (as of a difficulty) b obsolete : a final conclusion or decision about something arrived at after consideration c archaic : TERMINATION, END <hope that his enterprise would have a prosperous issue -- T. B. Macaulay>
6 a : a matter that is in dispute between two or more parties b : a vital or unsettled matter <economic issues> c : the point at which an unsettled matter is ready for a decision <brought the matter to an issue>
7 : a discharge (as of blood) from the body
8 a : something coming forth from a specified source <issues of a disordered imagination> b obsolete : DEED
9 a : the act of publishing or officially giving out or making available <the next issue of commemorative stamps> <issue of supplies by the quartermaster> b : the thing or the whole quantity of things given out at one time <read the latest issue>
- is·sue·less /'i-shü-l&s/ adjective
- at issue 1 : in a state of controversy : in disagreement 2 also in issue : under discussion or in dispute

---------------------------------------------------------------------The above is the complete definition in MERRIAM/WEBSTER, an American English dictionary. Nowhere does it say, or imply that an ISSUE is a critiscism or fault.

Just for the record, in my post to Raden, on the Busse Forum, I said Ferret, aka weasel, in the context of ' Set a ferret to catch a rat' (an old English adage),not in the context of the Light reconnaisance vehicle by Rolls Royce.

Quote:

''First let me say there are objective issues and subjective issues. I think it's helpful to keep that in mind while discussing the attributes of any knife. It's also difficult to adress your questions because the majority of them are overly broad and ill defined''

This from Dave H, is what I objected to.

For your further information, I have for a number of years, chaired, and moderated two internet discussion forums (USA based), both technical in nature, and dealing with technical questions, requiring a sometimes difficult, and complex answer, and one in mainland Europe, though it has to be said nothing to do with knives. I have never had to address a problem such as this before, and I am quite familiar with american context, syntax, and idiosyncracies.

For me to be taken to task, for the my of the English language, and to be told that my questions were overly broad, and ill defined, (which in the final analysis is a question of both objectivity and opinion) was at the very least, unfriendly.

I have said my piece, and will not mention the matter again.

To those of you, who answered, or at least tried to address my overly simplistic(sic) questions and issues, in a spirit of freindliness, thank you.
 
Originally posted by savantuk
5 a : a final outcome that usually constitutes a solution (as of a problem) or resolution (as of a difficulty) - is·sue·less /'i-shü-l&s/ adjective
- at issue 1 : in a state of controversy : in disagreement 2 also in issue : under discussion or in dispute

---------------------------------------------------------------------The above is the complete definition in MERRIAM/WEBSTER, an American English dictionary. Nowhere does it say, or imply that an ISSUE is a critiscism or fault.



Just for the record, in my post to Raden, on the Busse Forum, I said Ferret, aka weasel, in the context of ' Set a ferret to catch a rat' (an old English adage),not in the context of the Light reconnaisance vehicle by Rolls Royce.
Click to expand...

Here in the states one can say " I have an issue with something" and be taken as critical as the definition you provides states " as a problem" in a state of controversey"


AS far as my assumption on the definition of ferret - I am sorry I was wrong- I guess I was just thinking of overkill as usual :eek:
 
Savantuk - the fact that you purchased a Sebenza for a not inconsiderable amount of money, and further as you posted have one on order for your son must mean that you have found significant virtue in this knife! So we may well ask what you did find in the Sebenza that caused you to purchase two of them? I think that as you carry and use this knife day in and day out, over time you will find your impressions of this knife will tend to grow in value.
If you judge a knife by what it does or how it looks, then your points are well taken (although I admit we Sebenzanistas are an enthusiastic lot and as you have found out, even the slightest criticism is not taken without comment!). Why are we so enthusiastic? I think that there are characteristics of the company and its products that simply stand out year in and year out; consistent quality, superb craftsmanship, and customer service second to none. The bottom line is that CRK is a company and a line of products that we can always count on to deliver what we find most important. They EARN our loyalty by deliverying what we value, consistently, year after year. I have never found that level of consistency in any other production knife company - certainly not in Benchmade, Microtech, or Spyderco (and I have many examples, good and bad, of each) or even in a high end "botique" production houses like William Henry Knives.
Your points of aesthetics or functionality are understood. Yes, there are other products on the market that cut as well, may better serve your sense of aesthetics, and may be made of similar quality materials. These points either cannot be argued or can be proven or demonstrated. Some find the Sebenza is just plain ugly (the Gray ****). And I find that ergonomically, there are better folders on the market.
But you also ask why the Sebenza is so expensive? Pick a Sebenza off the shelf and look at it under a microscope; every line, bevel, cut, and engraving is done to perfection. The blades are all CNC profiled, but then, unlike the mass producers, are all hand ground and sharpened to a polished, convex cutting edge. The bottom line is in the handwork, handfitting, and precision to the tightest tolerances in the industry, custom or production, that defines this product and accounts for its cost. The president of Spyderco said last year that Spyderco could not make a knife to the precision of a Sebenza and sell it for the price that CRK charges!
High praise indeed!
Welcome to the club.
 
As Savantuk & Knifeline have pointed out it does seem that there is a bit of Brit bashing, unintenional or not, going on on the forum at the moment. This may all be down to lingustic nuances (hope I spelt that lot right :D )

However I have posted on several issues over on the political forum in the last week or so and a lot of the feedback is that all us Brits (whether labeled in with the rest of europe or seperatley) as a bunch of wingey commie terrorist suporting low lives.

I have only recently come back to the forum after a couple of year abscence (and how expensive has this been :D ) mainly because of the tone of a lot of the posts. I hope we are not going down that road again.

I am here to learn and would prefer to be able to ask questions/post queries without feeling got at.

Perhaps I am just being a bit over sensitive, I hope so.
 
Bagman, There are plenty of individuals who may be "bashers". I do not have all the answers but I truly believe that people are afraid of what they do not understand,whether or not it be a foreigner, a person of a different race, culture or even an inatimate object ,etc. Now fear can and does cause people to react rather strongly at times.The truth is that we have over ten thousand people registered here and very few will be biased towards any one group at a time. Now they may seem present in larger amounts because they post there views. I for one hope you guys stay and learn our ways a little more and we learn yours a bit.... We all have something good to offer...
 
Thanks Tallpaul, I hope you are correct.

It would however be much much much cheaper for me if I did look at the forums :D
 
I have always found Savantuk's posts interesting and did not find the post in question hostile in any way. In fact, he raised some questions that I have wanted to ask.
In addition to Savantuk's posted questions I would also ask: Isn't CNC milling supposed to reduce cost to the customer? That's what was said in the 80's when many machinists were laid off...
Of course, considering the market demand for Sebenzas, CRK could raise prices much higher and still sell every one. That's worth considering also. CRK has NOT gouged it's customers.

-SB
 
I would guess that CNC machining increases accuracy and repeatability, does it decrease cost for the consumer? Maybe, but I'll venture to guess that it's more of keeping costs from rising exponentially.

BTW, SharpBits I like the picture of the fixed blade sebenza. Where can I get one of those? :p
 
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