Sebenza Tolerances?

C

cutlerylover

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Hey guys I have a strange dilema, well I am havign an argument back and forth with someone online (already a stupid thing to do, lol since it never leads to anything) but the guy is very annoying anyway the argument is that I say that the sebenza has closer tolerances than any benchmade model, Could anyone think of a way for me to prove that? I mean a digital caliper might help, but I dont own one...Any ideas? possibly soemwhere online that wodul confirm that? And I know "dont feed the troll," but sometimes they just beg for it, lol...
 
Its fact but bad tolerance made the AK 47 the best gun of the last centuary so it isnt all about tolerance levels in a tool weapon.
 
These_Nutz said:
Its fact but bad tolerance made the AK 47 the best gun of the last centuary so it isnt all about tolerance levels in a tool weapon.
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Thats a good point...Its just this specific argument though, it started off as the usual, the chris reeves knvies are overprices and you dotn get anythgin more for the money and Benchmades are better...In certain aspect different benchamdes designs might be better for different cutting tasks true, but the argument is over overall quality and fit and finish...And like many who put down the sebenzas they dotn own them or have not tried them before, normaly I wouldnt care at all and ignore the comment, but I really just want to shut this guy up with some facts, lol...he keeps goign on about how the CNC machiens are the same as benchmade, what he doesnt understand is all the hands on checks and work that goes into the sebenzas...I was just wonderign if there was a palce I coudl just get proof to shut him up you know...thats all...In gebveral us knife nuts know that closer tolerances is better with knives, means less bladeplay and better overall quality...
 
cutlerylover said:
Hey guys I have a strange dilema, well I am havign an argument back and forth with someone online (already a stupid thing to do, lol since it never leads to anything) but the guy is very annoying anyway the argument is that I say that the sebenza has closer tolerances than any benchmade model, Could anyone think of a way for me to prove that? I mean a digital caliper might help, but I dont own one...Any ideas? possibly soemwhere online that wodul confirm that? And I know "dont feed the troll," but sometimes they just beg for it, lol...
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Let it go !! I have had Benchmades that were pretty sweet.
 
Benchmades ARE sweet, but the sebenzas are in a class of their own...This is just for arguments sake...

-Jeff
 
cutlerylover said:
Benchmades ARE sweet, but the sebenzas are in a class of their own...This is just for arguments sake...

-Jeff
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I dunno.....

IMG_1529.jpg
 
cutlerylover said:
. . . the argument is that I say that the sebenza has closer tolerances than any benchmade model, Could anyone think of a way for me to prove that?
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Cutlerylover,

I understand your debate dilemma. I wouldn't imagine that the guy on the other side of the argument has ever held and operated a Sebenza, and compared them side by side with a Benchmade. Had he done that, he would be denying his own senses by making his claims. It's also possible that this guy doesn't have much of a mechanical mind -- perhaps he doesn't go through the mental experiment of what he's observing, and what it would take to produce such a product. These are the things that amaze me about the Sebenza as I go through that mental experiment:

  • Design of the pivot bushing system: A Sebenza blade moves freely, yet there's no blade play, even with the pivot screw tightened all the way. The tolerances that it takes to produce such a pivot are measured in the 10ths of thousandths of an inch. These tolerances are not achievable in typical mechanism-building production facilities w/o some extraordinary techniques. Other knife manufacturers do not use this pivot bushing construction for that very reason. It's not to say that a non-bushing based design is bad; plenty of excellent knives on the market, including the Umnumzaan, set pivot tension with the pivot screw. It is to say, however, that the tolerances achieved in the Sebenza are extraordinary.
  • Inlay fit: CRK puts inlays into a machined "cavity" in the titanium, to make the inlay secure against lateral forces, w/o local stresses from fasteners, like the screws that other manufacturers typically use on overlays. One examination of the inlays on either an Mnandi or a classic wood Sebenza illustrates moderate tolerances being held. I say "illustrates moderate tolerances" because you can often see a tiny gap between the inlay and the wall of the cavity. The reason the gap is there is because Chris allows for the expansion and contraction of natural materials within the relatively stable cavity dimensions. When you consider Chris's consideration for expansion coefficient, indeed, high tolerances are held for in CRK manufacturing.
  • Pin/screw fit: Examine the screws and pins in the Sebenza. The heads of the screws and pins are countersink style; however, to look and feel them installed, they could be flat-base screw heads sitting on the surface of a flat piece of metal, as they would be in most knife implementations. Think about how accurate the screw and the countersink mating must be to make this so, w/o the head being noticeably above or below the surface of the scale.
Although I'm sure there are more examples, that's what comes to mind for me.

Benchmade makes a fine product -- I own many of them. However, to say that Benchmade, or any of my other favorite high-volume knife companies (Kershaw, Victorinox, Spyderco) hold tolerances as tightly as CRK, is to contradict simple observation.
 
Fooj said:
Cutlerylover,

I understand your debate dilemma. I wouldn't imagine that the guy on the other side of the argument has ever held and operated a Sebenza, and compared them side by side with a Benchmade. Had he done that, he would be denying his own senses by making his claims. It's also possible that this guy doesn't have much of a mechanical mind -- perhaps he doesn't go through the mental experiment of what he's observing, and what it would take to produce such a product. These are the things that amaze me about the Sebenza as I go through that mental experiment:

  • Design of the pivot bushing system: A Sebenza blade moves freely, yet there's no blade play, even with the pivot screw tightened all the way. The tolerances that it takes to produce such a pivot are measured in the 10ths of thousandths of an inch. These tolerances are not achievable in typical mechanism-building production facilities w/o some extraordinary techniques. Other knife manufacturers do not use this pivot bushing construction for that very reason. It's not to say that a non-bushing based design is bad; plenty of excellent knives on the market, including the Umnumzaan, set pivot tension with the pivot screw. It is to say, however, that the tolerances achieved in the Sebenza are extraordinary.
  • Inlay fit: CRK puts inlays into a machined "cavity" in the titanium, to make the inlay secure against lateral forces, w/o local stresses from fasteners, like the screws that other manufacturers typically use on overlays. One examination of the inlays on either an Mnandi or a classic wood Sebenza illustrates moderate tolerances being held. I say "illustrates moderate tolerances" because you can often see a tiny gap between the inlay and the wall of the cavity. The reason the gap is there is because Chris allows for the expansion and contraction of natural materials within the relatively stable cavity dimensions. When you consider Chris's consideration for expansion coefficient, indeed, high tolerances are held for in CRK manufacturing.
  • Pin/screw fit: Examine the screws and pins in the Sebenza. The heads of the screws and pins are countersink style; however, to look and feel them installed, they could be flat-base screw heads sitting on the surface of a flat piece of metal, as they would be in most knife implementations. Think about how accurate the screw and the countersink mating must be to make this so, w/o the head being noticeably above or below the surface of the scale.
Although I'm sure there are more examples, that's what comes to mind for me.

Benchmade makes a fine product -- I own many of them. However, to say that Benchmade, or any of my other favorite high-volume knife companies (Kershaw, Victorinox, Spyderco) hold tolerances as tightly as CRK, is to contradict simple observation.
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I appreciate the respone, yes my thoughts as well, I think Ill just let it go, he seems to stuborn to even accept truth if I were to give him facts...Tahnks, Merry christmas guys!
 
Quote from Sal at Spyderco:

Unless you are a manufacturer, familiar with close tolerance manufacturing of heat treated steel & Titanium parts, you are not likely to be able to see all of the differences between one of Chris' knives and others. For example; CRK keeps 0.0005 tolerance on surface grinding. That's one sixth the thickness of a hair. Do you have the knowledsge and equipment to discover that tolerance?

In the end, it's all about trust. CRK took many years to build and maintain their repuation. Built with consistent focus. Even those trying to make a "cheaper" version must "leave out processes" or "soften their tolerance", or they will cost as much.

Rarely do you pay for the "name". That's a bullshit sales pitch made up by the ignorant claiming to offer the same for less. Money valuation between countries might offer a "deal" for a while until the money value balances, but all in all, you will get what you pay for.
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I'm not sure that I could tell the difference in tolerance just by handling* the knives. However, if I were making a bet, I would put my money on the Chris Reeve.

*note: I don't currently own any Benchmades (707 is the on the way!), just Sebenzas. I have handled them before though.
 
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Eh...I think that I could chime in on some of CRK's knives as I have made components for them before. If I remember correctly, there were many of them that were plus .0002 minus .0000 . To even measure to this tolerance close to a machine took a special micrometer called an indicating mic. Temperature control was important as well...Let the machine sit idle for any length of time and it was making junk. This is one of the reasons that I, a machinist, would buy them. Simple answer- Respect and a no compromise attitude.

Just my two cents-


Bill
 
rolexkid said:
it's like Rolex to a seiko, not even close.
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Seiko being the superior one in time keeping ability. I love my stupid expensive mechanical watches and I'd love a Rolex Submariner, but I have a Seiko Sportura Alarm Chronograph and I use it to set my Omega and Breitling lol.
 
the fit,finish, the exact tolerances.the love and care that goes into a piece of equipment,whether it be a rolex or a sebenza. not mass produced. bottom line, Quality!!
 
Thanks guys for the responses! Yeah we all understand the problem is trying to explain it to the non beleivers, lol...I think the biggest problem here though with this person is the "show off" aspect, as if I am tryign to say mine is better than yours, he doesnt get the fact I am trying to make general comments about facts...I cna udnerstand people might get a bit jelous even thoguh there is no ned for it, some might say lamborginis suck because they know they cna nebver buy one, lol, I could understand that way of thinkign, doesnt make it right but at least I can udnerstand where he might be commign from, and trust me, Im not rich, took me a LONG time to get a sebenza but after hearing all of you guys here talkign about I knew I must try it for myself...AndI am glad I did!
 
Tell them there is a forum where people go to talk about knives. A lot of these knife enthusiasts recommend the Sebenza for its high quality and individually fitted tight tolerances. Then refer them to Blade Forums and have them search using this: http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

for the countless threads on Why is a Sebenza better? and Why should I buy a Sebenza?, Convince me to buy a Sebenza. After doing a little of their own research perhaps this person will understand why soo many have such high praise for the Sebenza and its tight tolerances.

If this person is not willing to educate themselves then waist no more of your time on them...so you can post more videos on youtube :D.
 
These_Nutz said:
Its fact but bad tolerance made the AK 47 the best gun of the last centuary so it isnt all about tolerance levels in a tool weapon.
Click to expand...

While I will grant you that a lot of AK47s and their clones do have poor tolerances, what made the original so good and reliable was an excellent design and loose tolerances.

They were not poorly made, but intentionally made to have slightly loose tolerances, to aid in reliability. It also doesn't hurt that Kalashnikovs design is brilliant in its simplicity.

But, loose vs. poor.....There is a difference.;)
 
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