Secret of Alchemite MC Revealed

Minuteman

Minuteman

Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Messages
234
Well, Marbles has revealed the secret of Alchemite MC steel (used in their Classic Series knives). It was 0170-6 all along!

http://www.marblesoutdoors.com/cutlery/bladesteeltypes.html

I spoke with Marble's new CEO a few weeks ago and he advised me that this announcement was forthcoming. I think it is good news for Marbles that they are using a high quality tool steel (many of us were a little worried when they wouldn't say what it was) and that they decided to lift the proprietary material designation so everyone can know what they're getting. They believe they can deliver more bang for the buck with 0170-6 than with 52100. He assured me that under his leadership the company has renewed committed to grind quality, assembly, fit, finish, etc. as well.

Assuming the heat treatment processes are similar, this would put Marbles knives in the same class as the BK&T line, material wise, but with thinner, convex ground edges (and looking like knives used to look in the good old days).

If the edge on the large Trailmaker is durable enough, being ground as thin as it is, it should make quite a chopper.
 
Woohoo! I don't have any experience with it, so I don't know how good or bad it is, but at least they tell us what it is! My 10" Trailmaker with 5160 is an awesome chopper, and have had no problems with edge strength even taking full power swings into seasoned wood at an angle. Or prying chunks of wood out of trees when I bury the blade too deep to pull out normally :)
 
I hate to burst anybody's bubble, but I don't think it is O170-6. From all the reviews I read, and from their own advertisements, it would seem more likely to be closer to D2. They advertised the steel as being more corrosion resistant. O170-6 is not even close to corrosion resistant.
 
Yes, I believe it was. Even if it rusts out quicker than straight iron in an acid bath, I'm sure a good spin can be put on it:

"...contains the same chromium and vanadium atoms used in making such great stainless steels as VG-10 and S30V. Has the same iron atoms alloyed in super-tough S7 and the same carbon found within O1..." :p
 
I don't believe that Marbles ever claimed anything more of their MC steel than the fact that it may be more corrosion resisitant than their old steel (referring to either 52100 or 5160).

I'm very happy that Marbles has finally revealed their MC steel to be 0170-6. Whether it was 0170-6 from the very begining of it's use is unknown, but all sounds to be well now.

I'll also make the guess that Marbles is now farming out all of their work to Camillus, which suits me just fine. If I remember correctly, I thought I once read on the Camillus forum that they are exclusively using 0170-6. Now I want to know if the Becker line, the Marbles line, and the Cold Steel CarbonV line are all made of the same steel.......
 
Well, BK&T is made out of 0176-6, but whether Carbon V is the same steel or not is supposed to be a guarded secret. For all I know, it's 0176-7.
 
Originally posted by Buzzbait
I don't believe that Marbles ever claimed anything more of their MC steel than the fact that it may be more corrosion resisitant than their old steel (referring to either 52100 or 5160).

I'm very happy that Marbles has finally revealed their MC steel to be 0170-6. Whether it was 0170-6 from the very begining of it's use is unknown, but all sounds to be well now.
Click to expand...

According to the CEO, all Classic Series knives have been made from 0170-6 since they transitioned to "Alchemite MC" from 52100 and 5160.

He also said that you can tell the difference by looking at the Marbles mark on the blade. All late model 52100 / 5160 blades are supposed to be laser etched. All 0170-6 blades are supposed to be tang stamped like the older ones used to be.

Also, one additional point of confusion, the Safe Grip (kraton) versions are 420 stainless (yuk). They are making these so they have a model that could complete in the discount store market. They are much cheaper than the Classic Series.
 
These are the words Marbles Outdoors used about their Alchemite MC steel:

QUOTE:
Marble's Alchemite MC steel
Marble's Alchemite MC Steel maintains all the properties of quality high carbon steel
with the additional advantage and convenience or(sic) corrosion and stain resistance.
UNQUOTE

from a scan of their catalog page at:
http://www.discountknives.com/marble/pg313.jpg

I would suggest they had gone out of their way to imply their steel was stain-resistant.

Or perhaps they've changed their steel and still want to call it Alchemite MC?
 
To make matters even more complicated, all of their Kraton handled fixed blades are most assuredly not 420 stainless. I tested a Kraton handled model last year, directly against older 52100 Marbles, and the steel was definitely not 420. Someone even ran some minor stain resistance tests on the blade, and it quickly developed a patina like carbon steel.
 
All I'm saying is that if Alchemite was touted as having the advantage of being corrosion resistant, then somebody screwed up the ads. O170-6 is no more corrosion resistant than 52100 or 5160.
 
Originally posted by Buzzbait
To make matters even more complicated, all of their Kraton handled fixed blades are most assuredly not 420 stainless. I tested a Kraton handled model last year, directly against older 52100 Marbles, and the steel was definitely not 420. Someone even ran some minor stain resistance tests on the blade, and it quickly developed a patina like carbon steel.
Click to expand...

I think this may be because Marbles are transitioning to a series called Safe Grip which are supposed to be 420HC, and not only that the blades are NOT convexed.

The previous Kraton handle versions of their Classic series were supposed to be Alchemite MC steel (whatever that was), and convexed.

Confusingly the currently advertized (420HC) Safe Grip series have exactly the same model numbers as the older Kraton handled (Alchemite) Classic series......(see the catalog page referenced above)
 
Well, at any rate, the Classic Series is now 0170-6, which gets my interest up significantly over "Carbon/Stainless Unknown Proprietary Stuff".

Now, what I would like to know is this: Will one of these recent production 10" Trailmakers hold up to chopping like Cargun's old 5160 Trailmaker? The size and edge geometry appear to be ideal -- if the steel is up to the task.

Cliff, how about getting your hands on one...
 
Ditto Danbo. A good move by Marble's. To quote Ethan Becker, 0170-6 'cuts like a shrieking witch.' According to an earlier post on this forum (from Joe Talmadge's steel FAQ) Carbon V or 0170-6, ...is a very good steel. It is 50100b which is almost the same as 52100 except that is has less chromium. It has about .4% and 52100 has about 1.5%. Also 50100b has about .15% vanadium in it whereas 52100 has none or very little, like less than .05%. It is a pretty good balance between hardness, sharpness, and toughness. For a tougher blade you could go to multi-quenched 5160 or 52100. Carbon V would work well for a large knife if you aren't going to use it extensively as a crowbar. It is pretty similar to O1 which has been used for Randall fighting knives for decades.
 
Minuteman :

Cliff, how about getting your hands on one...
Click to expand...

I don't have much interest in the Marbles line based on comments of sloppy grinds, and problems with heat treating, this would be especially critical for the larger blades. The price is also more expensive than a Battle Rat, and it doesn't have near the level of QC, and I doubt quality of heat treating. There are other knives that I would rather spend money on right now.

However the grind is radically different, much more optomized for cutting than the Swamp Rat large blades, which are designed to be able to handle very hard work with a minimal of damage. It would be interesting to compare two of the knives and see just how much of a performance difference was seen and the difference in scope of work.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, you should be aware that Marbles is now under new leadership. George Brinkley has stepped in not only as CEO, but as a partner. He is very interested in restoring the Marbles line to its rightful place as a high quality knife manufacturer.

In doing so, he is significantly changing the focus of the company to a narrower range of offerings with improved quality. He indicated to me that when he took over, Marbles was focused on very short production runs generating literally hundreds of variants aimed at the collector market. Unfortunately, spreading their production so thin and cutting their customer base weakened their performance and quality suffered.

With a limited number of models they are now trying to increase consistency and ship product in a way that fits the business model of most distributors and retailers who need to be able to market and sell the same item repeatably -- not deal with endless one-offs.

I used to get flyers of the 52100 and 5160 line and they indeed changed from month to month and if you looked at the photos of the grind lines, some varied so much that they didn't even look like the same model even though they were! I looked at recent photos of the current 0170-6 models and was scrutinizing the grind lines and could not differentiate one blade from the next. They also appear to be finished with a much finer belt.

To sum it all up I am hopeful. Marbles is a historic brand and it is a shame they went down the tube for a while. I would like to see them back at the other end of the scale. As you indicated the 10" Trailmaker is ground for aggressive cutting. Heat treatment is indeed an unknown at this time.
 
My problem with the Marbles knives has always been the sloppy grinding. When I say sloppy, I'm not talking about a little difference on either side of the blade. I am talking major differences. I have seen Marbles knives that were a 1/4" lower on one side than the other. Maybe that stuff doesnt mean much to some people, but it bugged me enough that I wouldnt buy one. Hopefully, this new leadership will tighten up the reins a little bit. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top