Secrets of the Master Cutlers of the late 1800's- early 1900's

Codger_64

Codger_64

Moderator
Joined
Oct 8, 2004
Messages
62,324
I've run across some odd details of materials used by these early master cutlers. Some of which make absolutely no sense until you learn the explanation of their use. I'm going to post a few materials and see what new insight you fellows can provide on them. I know what I've found, but perhaps you've read or heard differently. Here is a brief list of head scratchers.

1. Sawdust
2. Corncobs
3. Lead
4. Brick dust
5. Horse Manure
6.The urine of redheaded boys

Please pitch in and help where you can. After a while, I'll add what I've read and heard on each, but first, your knowledge.

Codger
 
I,ll give it a shot.
Sawdust is a desicant.Works for drying woods.
Both corncobs and brickdust are abrasives
Lead is a filler
Horse manure makes a good fuel and abrasive
Urine for tanning and etching
Most of this is stuff I've been told by old timers in my life.Sometimes they would stretch the truth.Arnold
 
Without looking anything up, I thought I heard brick dust was used somehow in the hardening process..??? Maybe?
 
The urine of redheaded boys has long been a favorite old tale. Many years ago trying to trace this one back to a point or origin I ended up with "On Diverse Arts" by Theophilus. It was the ultimate quenching fluid that could add magical properties to the steel and resist breakage in battle. A close second would be a fern fed goat run through with the super heated blade. In any case the urine had to be from a red head or it would not work properly.

In any case I could not trace it back further then old Theo, I would love to hear if it does indeed have an older heritage.

All the best
Frank Trzaska
 
Yep, you were on the money with this one. Also, blades quenched in the body of a slave was said to work. Now what do you suppose blood and urine have in common, besides being a bodily fluid?
 
Now shall we indulge in a bit of guesswork? (BRL WOULD BAN ME FOR THIS!)

Suppose that a guild of metalurgists, under appointment of the King or Lord, discovered that a group of people (incidental to their chosen diet) produced urine higher in salts and nitrates than other groups of people. Perhaps, in the British Isles, the people with red hair had a diet higher in salt, and young lads of that race had a higher content still. Adults, it is known, have much more developed sweat glands, and excreet a lot of salt in that manner. Young boys, on the other hand, do not sweat nearly as much because of their physical immaturity. Their main excretion of excess salts is through their urine. Now, why not lassies, as well as laddies? Today it is known, at least in my experience, that the red headed lass has no peer in her temper when riled. But maybe in the bygone era when this custom/superstition arose, the worth of a female was discounted to the point it was felt the use of female urine would actually weaken the iron. Just supposition there. I do know that the Army of the Confederacy had no such qualms, and the ladies of the South were requested to donate their nightwater to the cause of makeing nitrates for gunpowder. In fact, the ladies in some parts, notably in New Orleans, took pains to deliver this resource directly at the invaders marching beneath their balconies, drawing the attention of their commander who issued a very harsh edict in regard to the ladies of New Orleans and their conduct toward their occupiers.

Codger
 
Banned... more likely a visit in the middle of the night by guys dressed in black hoods for just discussing young boys and urine in the same thread!

Your theory is way out of my league... haven't a clue as to wheter it works or not just remember running down the old tale and never really coming to the conclusion or the bottom of it. I suppose a fully equipped labratory might be able to confirm or deny it there is any difference between the red head or blonde and the lad vs. the lass.

All the best
Frank Trzaska
 
Well, several old turn of the century cutlers mentioned their desperation when their imported old world cutlers refused to use any quenching fluid but that of red haired boys, so the "superstition" must have endured in the guilds of Europe for some time after Theo wrote his tome sometime circa 1200 A.D.

One can just imagine the owner/factory manager trying to acquire this commodity in 1876 America. Do you place an advertisement in the paper? Or tack up broadbills? And just how do you induce people to have their sons to donate? Money, of course, but what is the value of pee? Do you provide company buckets? Now there would be a unique artifact to find. And what standards do you impose for purity and freshness? Ahhh...I guess these questions will have to wait.

Someone can search Mr. Levine's forum for "Brick", for the answer to the brickdust question.
 
Codger,
This thread reminded me that the smallest known,natural unit of measurement is the RCH.
This may compensate for not being high on the heat treat quench list.
Ron
 
In his forum here (and likely elsewhere), Mr. Levine has recounted many times an old formula for a cutler's cement used to attach handle materials to hidden tang knives. The traditional formula is called rozzil, and according to Mr. Levine in the details given him by an old time master cutler, Cesar Malattia (1885-1974), who showed him how to make traditional cutler's cement, it was composed of pine rosin (such as is used on violinist's bows), beeswax, and brick dust. Mr. Levine states that the rosin alone could be used, but it makes a more brittle cement. My own best guess is that the addition of beeswax is to make the cement more flexible, and the brick dust gives it strength (like rock used in concrete). He says also that hot water will melt the rozzil, so if you suspect your old knife might use this cement to secure the handle, you might want to avoid immersion in a sinkful of hot water, and I would suppose also in one of those new-fangled dish washing machines I have heard of. The cement made from this formula, he reports, is otherwise near permanent, and will stick to darn near anything.
 
I have a 10 year old very red-headed grandson. It is probably a good thing that I don't temper my own blades.:eek:

BTW, same red-headed grandson, at this young point in his life, is already a avid knife collector. I think it started when I gave him an old Camillus Cub Scout knife. Then later a new 34OT for his 10th birthday.

My daughter said a knife was on his Christmas list. So.........he will get a couple, maybe more.

Merry Christmas,
Dale
 
Now on to another cutler's material I mentioned: Horse Manure.

I ran across this mention in a memoir of Albert Baer.

"Underneath the drop hammers that forged the blades, hardened horse manure was placed because that gave just the right bounce to the drops, and believe it or not, for years horse manure was hardened in cutlery factories for that purpose."

Of course, forging in American cutleries went the way of the dodo bird by the late 1940's. I am searching for a quote I recently saw on the last mention of forging blades in the Imperial Associated Companies. I'll add it if/when I find it.
 
Michael,
Glad your feeling better. These posts are showing just what you were feeling like. Can you imagine Cell material and spontanious combustable dried horse manure together.. No wonder they had hinged roofs on the storage buildings.
And the odor must have been one fond memories are built upon. Kinda like mothballs and leather and stables.. you just never forget. :p
Anyways glad your back in form.
TTYL
Larry
 
Pneumonia is not the way I recommend anyone spend their Christmas holiday. I remembered where I saw the reference to hammer forging, now to relocate the document.
 
The document is a handwritten letter from A.B. Hourin to J. Louis Schrade dated March 27th, 1947, and titled "Report And Recommendations RE: Schrade Walden Plant".

Given the date and title, the report was sent just after the acquisition of Schrade Cutlery Company by Ulster Knife Co., Inc. (SW Inc. filed Feb 1946). In the section on manufacturing we find this:

MANUFACTURING METHODS:
Serious consideration should be given to the possibilities afforded by elimination of hand-forging of blades. A large part of our blades are in the small size group and only require one blow of the hammer. This really constitutes more of a forming operation than forging. A considerable saving in money, manpower and floor space could be realized. The problem of breaking in new men on this job will become more accute. It has certain disagreeable factors that young men do not take to easily

This, to me at least, seems to be the death knell of one of the few surviving hammer forging operations at Schrade Walden. As to what was so disagreeable about the operation, the noise of the drop hammers come immediately to mind. It is a "thump" that you can feel in your bones, even discounting what it does to the ears. Of course, I may be missing this as well, and they may be refering here to the smell of pressure heated horse manure.:p

Codger
 
Codger thanks for the test.
When I was attempting to make my first knife I was told to place the heated blade deep in sawdust to cool this had something to do with carbon and the depth was to prevent fire.
 
The sawdust in this case was used after the quench in water mixed with miscible oil. It dried the blades, as has been suggested. Later, it was found that ground corncobs actually worked better since they were more absorbant, up to four times more, and were a very inexpensive waste product. This comes from Blackie Collins' interview with Mr. Mirando of Imperial.

Codger
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top