Seeking information/Canadian Belt Knife (well, sort of)

[HARDBALL]

Hi all,

I'm hoping the good Folks of BF might be able to provide me with some information. First, the back story. Last week a friend and I visited a local Pawn Shop to check out any items of interest. I made my way to the Glass display Knife Case and I immediately noticed/recognized a very familiar "Rosewood" Knife handle shape (despite the Knife being mostly hidden in it's Leather Sheath). I asked the Shop Personal if I could examine the Knife and sure enough, I was right in my thinking as the Knife was a #1 Canadian (style) Belt Knife". Upon close examination, I quickly realized that this Knife was NOT a D.H. Russell/Grohmann Canadian made #1 Belt Knife but rather a Solingen, Germany made "RIPPLE EDGE" Ideal Products Inc. #1 Belt Knife. Regardless, I was super excited to find this (very good overall condition) Knife which appears to be of high quality being offered for sale. I have long wanted this style of Knife for many many years however, I just did not want to pay the cost of a Grohmann. At any rate, I told the Shop person that I'd would like purchase the Knife (offering to pay in cash) which worked to my benefit as I was able to swing an even better deal on this already low priced Knife. Long story short, I walked out the door with a very good condition (NON-serrated) edge "Ripple Edge" #1 for twenty dollars (plus tax). YES!
So, I have a few questions if you don't mind. Might "Ideal Products Inc." have had some sort of agreement with Grohmann of Canada to produce this VERY close copy of the Canadian #1 Belt Knife ? My thinking was perhaps since Grohmann used (at least presently) German Solingen Steel, I was thinking there might of been some sort of agreement/deal worked out between Grohmann and Ideal Products, Inc. ? Also, unlike the Grohmann #1, the "Ripple Edge" version has no lanyard hole in the Handle but rather three Brass Rivets. Might it be possible to have the top Rivet removed/modified for a "Lanyard" ? Suggestions for someone qualified to do this type of work would be greatly appreciated if it can be done.

This solidly built #1 weights in at 4.50 ounces.
O.A.L. of Knife is just a tad over 8 1/4"
The Blade is approximately 4"

On the whole, I'm VERY excited to have found this (I'm guessing circa 1960's) Knife. I plan taking the knife to a "Professional" Knife Sharpener (I've used before) late this week to see about (maybe) a "mild" buffing/polishing of Blade as the Blade has multi scratches. The Blade's edge (although dull) looks excellent! Also, the Leather Sheath that came with this Knife fits like a Glove however, since I plan to Belt carry this Knife in the Woods, I'm thinking perhaps I should purchase a new Grohmann Leather (Military) Sheath so as to properly secure (read NOT loose) this knife.

The link provided below is so one can view a photograph of the same knife I purchased.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Ripple+Edge/Ideal+Products+Inc.+Knife+Solingen+Germany&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjIwsul0_fvAhUU81MKHU1YCp4Q2-cCegQIABAA&oq=Ripple+Edge/Ideal+Products+Inc.+Knife+Solingen+Germany&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQA1CZpAJY2tACYKLYAmgAcAB4AIABjgGIAd0NkgEEMTAuN5gBAKABAaoBC2d3cy13aXotaW1nwAEB&sclient=img&ei=Pa9zYIiwGZTmzwLNsKnwCQ&bih=722&biw=1536&rlz=1C1NHXL_enUS723US723#imgrc=VQk517WtSmmSGM

I would appreciate any information/thoughts/suggestions/recommendations regarding this "RIPPLE EDGE" Knife. Thank you all kindly for any help you may offer.

Regards,
HARDBALL

 

[HARDBALL]

Ummmmm, I guess not too many "Canadian Belt Knife" fans ?
Oooh, this might be of interest to some, this German "Ripple Edge" #1 Knife is over an ounce heavier than the Grohmann #1. Thicker stock perhaps ?

HARDBALL

 

[Alberta Ed]

Interesting. My first Grohmann Canadian Belt Knife, which is rusting away somewhere in British Columbia's Chilcotin country after it dropped out of my pocket while hunting mule deer, had a slightly thicker blade than its replacement -- which I ordered with the military flap-over sheath. I drilled a lanyard hole (1/8") with a hand drill just behind the back rivet -- there is plenty of room. Don't know anything about the Ripple Edge but I doubt Grohmann would have made a deal with Ideal Products. FWIW, I prefer the original Grohmanns. I cut the sheath apart and melted in a couple coats of SnowSeal and re-stitched with waxed nylon thread using the cobbler's stitch; it's held up perfectly after 30+ years.

 

[HARDBALL]

Hello Al Ed,

Thank you for replying to my thread/questions. Sorry to hear you lost your CBK on a Hunting trip so long ago. Major Bummer! Al, if I understand you correctly, the Knife you lost had a slightly thicker blade than your new replacement Knife. Interesting since my (I'm thinking circa 1960's) "Ripple Edge" perhaps might of used the same heavier stock ? Ummmm. Ah, smart move on your part Al for ordering the Grohmann Leather "Military flap over Sheath". I am seriously thinking about doing the exact same thing and ordering that Sheath so as to avoid experiencing a lost Knife. Al, it sounds as if you did an outstanding mod on that Sheath to hold up for thirty years! Well done! I recently read a post by a BF member (I can't recall who) mentioned in a thread how important it is to have a "system" approach to carrying a Knife (or words to that effect). In other words, one having a SERIOUS quality Sheath (be it Leather or Kydex) is perhaps more important (for a number of reasons) than the actual Knife itself. I have amassed a fair amount of nice Knives over the years however, 99% of theses Knives, I will NOT wear in the Woods because of the poorly designed "retention" aspect (of an otherwise) quality made Sheath. I am referring to both the "retention & attachment" designs (or lack thereof) of Sheaths. For instance, I have a lovely lil' (Allen Jensen) Bird & Trout Knife with what appears to be a quality Leather Sheath EXCEPT, I will not trust this Sheath having (one) Snap/Leather Ban to retain this Knife on my Belt. The things is, I do too much physical moving about in the Woods which would (more than likely) cause the "snap" to come undone without me even taking notice. So, the lil' BTK stays in my "Pack". I have also learned over time that I do NOT like/want to carry (on my person/belt) any Knife having an O.A.L. of more than eight inches as it always seems to get in my way. Now that I've handled (own) this "Ripple Edge" #1, lol, I can't put it down! Man, there is just "something" special about this Knife's design! That being said, I am now seriously considering the purchase of the (even smaller/lighter) Grohmann Bird & Trout Knife, however, first things first, I need to order that Grohmann "Military flap over" Leather Belt Sheath (unless of course I can figure out a way to modify the original sheath for a more secure "Belt" carry). Thanks Al.

HARDBALL

 

[Alberta Ed]

Hello Al Ed,

Thank you for replying to my thread/questions. Sorry to hear you lost your CBK on a Hunting trip so long ago. Major Bummer! Al, if I understand you correctly, the Knife you lost had a slightly thicker blade than your new replacement Knife. Interesting since my (I'm thinking circa 1960's) "Ripple Edge" perhaps might of used the same heavier stock ? Ummmm. Ah, smart move on your part Al for ordering the Grohmann Leather "Military flap over Sheath". I am seriously thinking about doing the exact same thing and ordering that Sheath so as to avoid experiencing a lost Knife. Al, it sounds as if you did an outstanding mod on that Sheath to hold up for thirty years! Well done! I recently read a post by a BF member (I can't recall who) mentioned in a thread how important it is to have a "system" approach to carrying a Knife (or words to that effect). In other words, one having a SERIOUS quality Sheath (be it Leather or Kydex) is perhaps more important (for a number of reasons) than the actual Knife itself. I have amassed a fair amount of nice Knives over the years however, 99% of theses Knives, I will NOT wear in the Woods because of the poorly designed "retention" aspect (of an otherwise) quality made Sheath. I am referring to both the "retention & attachment" designs (or lack thereof) of Sheaths. For instance, I have a lovely lil' (Allen Jensen) Bird & Trout Knife with what appears to be a quality Leather Sheath EXCEPT, I will not trust this Sheath having (one) Snap/Leather Ban to retain this Knife on my Belt. The things is, I do too much physical moving about in the Woods which would (more than likely) cause the "snap" to come undone without me even taking notice. So, the lil' BTK stays in my "Pack". I have also learned over time that I do NOT like/want to carry (on my person/belt) any Knife having an O.A.L. of more than eight inches as it always seems to get in my way. Now that I've handled (own) this "Ripple Edge" #1, lol, I can't put it down! Man, there is just "something" special about this Knife's design! That being said, I am now seriously considering the purchase of the (even smaller/lighter) Grohmann Bird & Trout Knife, however, first things first, I need to order that Grohmann "Military flap over" Leather Belt Sheath (unless of course I can figure out a way to modify the original sheath for a more secure "Belt" carry). Thanks Al.

HARDBALL

I too carry my knives zipped in my daypack when hiking (still miss that first Canadian Belt Knife). Belt carry is fine around camp.

 

[HARDBALL]

I too carry my knives zipped in my daypack when hiking (still miss that first Canadian Belt Knife). Belt carry is fine around camp.

Hi Al Ed,

Yeaaaa Brother, I feel your pain Al Ed. I once lost an original Spyderco "Endura" some twenty years ago while Deer Hunting. Arrrrrrrrr!
I truly liked that "Endura" Folder! Ooh well. I later replaced it with the "Para Military 2" which is a nice Knife however, the original Endura was a lot lighter/easier to carry in the Pocket. I carry the "Para Military" in a Gear Bag. To this day, I still haven't found a "Folder" that floats my Boat for every day (Pocket Carry).
I continue to search.

HARDBALL

 

[tltt]

Knife was made by Anton Wingen (Othello) for Ideal. Henckels was cataloging a Russell copy that was made by Wingen too. Gutmann, PIC, and a few other importers of the time all imported a Wingen Russell copy in the late 60's, early 70's for a while also. Wingen made them in the #1 and #4 sizes.

.

There's a pic of a Wingen #4 size.

My guess is that either a patent expired or it was just design theft.

Edit - It took me a bit to remember, Wingen called the #1 size the Yukon Trapper. Wingen also had an Original and Alaskan Trapper which where based on Randall and Abercrombie and Fitch designs.

 

[HARDBALL]

Knife was made by Anton Wingen (Othello) for Ideal. Henckels was cataloging a Russell copy that was made by Wingen too. Gutmann, PIC, and a few other importers of the time all imported a Wingen Russell copy in the late 60's, early 70's for a while also. Wingen made them in the #1 and #4 sizes.

.

There's a pic of a Wingen #4 size.

My guess is that either a patent expired or it was just design theft.

Edit - It took me a bit to remember, Wingen called the #1 size the Yukon Trapper. Wingen also had an Original and Alaskan Trapper which where based on Randall and Abercrombie and Fitch designs.

Hello titt,

Oooh, THANK YOU kindly Sir for providing me with such useful/excellent information on the Ideal Products Inc. "Ripple Edge" #1 (German made) Canadian (style) Belt Knife. I very much appreciate your help in this matter. Ahhhh! While I am not familiar with the name (Anton Wingen (Othello) for Ideal Products Inc.) I have indeed heard of the "Yukon Trapper" Knife. I would think that since the "Canadian Belt Knife" (if memory serves) was designed in the 1950's, one would think the Patent would last for at least (what ?) twenty five years or more ? Then again, perhaps not. I know little about such legal matters. The other suggestion of the Knife being an out and out stealing of Patent sure seems to be a risky business proposition (nevertheless, that doesn't stop some People/Companies from stealing a design I suspect). titt, again, I VERY much appreciate all your help. I now have more useful information to do a bit more research.


Regards,

HARDBALL

 

[HARDBALL]

Found this interesting History :

SCARCE VINTAGE IDEAL PRODUCTS BIRD & TROUT HUNTING KNIFE (not the #1 Yukon Trapper).

Ideal Products and Ideal Shirt Company were U.S. retailers of primarily outdoor and sporting wear, although they also had a limited line of other sporting goods. In their earlier days that had a much more extensive line of outdoor sporting goods. Their knives were made by Anton Wingen Jr. in Solingen, Germany with a few of their latest knives coming from Japanese contractors. Every German knife I've ever seen from Ideal was made by Wingen. This model was actually made by Wingen under their Clauberg brand. Wilhelm Clauberg was one of Solingen, Germany's old cutlers and was established in 1810. The company was purchased by Anton Wingen Jr. some time around 1920 and was operated by two of Wingen's sons. The two companies shared several patterns and likely shared some manufacturing space as well. I've had identical models bearing the Clauberg name or the Wingen name. The Clauberg knives generally had a very distinctive appearance and design. Particularly, the design of the pommel and guard, which were cast in place on several models. I've owned many Ideal-branded knives over the years and this is the first I've seen from Wingen's Clauberg line. Anton Wingen Jr. has always been one of my favorite Solingen makers and I have collected their knives for years. Anton Wingen Jr. ceased operations and closed their doors in the early 1990's. However, for nearly 120 years they were one of Solingen's finest makers and produced some knives of incredible quality. In addition to their own knives, Wingen also made knives for other top firms including Kershaw, Henckels, Hoffritz, and A.G. Russell. This was a very popular German export model that was offered by several German firms and numerous U.S. importers. This is one of the smaller examples I've seen and it's a great little bird & trout model. The knife was very nicely made and has seen only light use. It has not been cleaned or buffed and remains original. The thick blade was ground from carbon steel and polished to a mirrored finish. It's free of any significant corrosion or pitting with just a couple small carbon spots as shown. The blade has been lightly sharpened one time and remains pretty close to full. The edge is free of any nicks, chips, dings, or damage and remains very nice. The aluminum guard is of Clauberg's classic style and remains rock-solid with no marring or damage. The handle is of alternating stacked aluminum and black spacers and has a classic look. This handle design was often seen on models called a "Sheriff's Knife". The handle remains completely tight and free of any damage. The aluminum pommel is also a classic Clauberg style and remains completely solid and tight as well. It's free of any serious dings or marring with just a small ding on the bottom tip as shown. The brass pommel nut is the original and remains flush and tight. It shows no signs of stripping or past adjustment. All handle components remain correctly aligned and tight. The blade is 3" and the knife measures just over 6-1/4" in overall length. The sheath is the original "Ideal" marked sheath and remains solid. It was dyed or colored black at some point in time, likely by the original owner. There also appears to be at least the remnants of a name marked into the front, as well as a small cut in the center as shown. An unusual example of this classic knife from one of Solingen's finest makers!! Sorry, but no international shipping.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/scarce-vintage-ideal-products-bird-251526930 (PAST/OLD AUCTION) FOR INFORMATION USE ONLY.

 

[HARDBALL]

 

[HARDBALL]

Ha! My FIRST EVER Blade Forums posted photograph. I never learned how to post pixs before. At any rate, here is the Knife I purchased for twenty dollars.

HARDBALL

 

[brownshoe]

There are a lot of copies of the Grohman. None tops the original in my small brain. Original was in carbon steel. I believe the design won awards, but I cannot recall which ones. The most recent copy is by Cold Steel. It's still a big seller for Grohman according to their sales rep.

 

[HARDBALL]

There are a lot of copies of the Grohman. None tops the original in my small brain. Original was in carbon steel. I believe the design won awards, but I cannot recall which ones. The most recent copy is by Cold Steel. It's still a big seller for Grohman according to their sales rep.

Hi brownshoe,

Yes indeed, lots and lots of copies of the #1 Canadian Belt Knife. I really wanted an original Grohmann however, there was no way I was going to pass up this really nice German copy #1 (especially for twenty dollars!). Interesting fact that I recently read, that the original Grohmann actually used "German" Steel for their Knives. I'm not sure if this is true today. The "Ripple Edge" #1 is over an ounce heavier than the Grohmann #1 (according to the specs I've seen). The "Ripple Edge" weights in at 4.50 ounces and is a SOLID Knife (and I think nice looking and pretty darn close in style/looks to the original Grohmann). Perhaps one day, I'll find a deal on a original Grohmann #1 or perhaps the Grohmann #2 Bird & Trout Knife which is a little bit smaller than the #1. That being said, I couldn't resist purchasing (on line) this BARK RIVER "Micro Canadian" Knife. It's very tiny being only five inches O.A.L. with a less than two inch Blade. It is a "three Finger" Knife. I plan to make this my (EDC) Woods knife as it's so small as not to get in my way (on my Belt). As the saying goes "good things come in small packages!"

HARDBALL


SPECS :
https://www.knifecenter.com/item/GR...l-blade-rosewood-handles-brown-leather-sheath

 

[Dextar]

Having Grohmann #1 (stag horn scale), 2 (turquoise & semi-precious stone scale), 3 (rosewood scale), 4 with guthook (water buffalo scale), love them (not the purchasing experience).
Customized a sheath for #1 for sometimes left-hand hanging

Have no idea about the Ripple Edge, but I can see different bolster between your posted Ripple Edge picture and Grohmann #1 knife.

Cannot tell the difference if you prefer to take either Ripple Edge or Grohmann as EDC knife, but since I purchase mainly for collection, I prefer Grohmann, although no doubt, they are very comfort to handle and use, only take them out for camp or hiking sometimes.

 

[HARDBALL]

Having Grohmann #1 (stag horn scale), 2 (turquoise & semi-precious stone scale), 3 (rosewood scale), 4 with guthook (water buffalo scale), love them (not the purchasing experience).
Customized a sheath for #1 for sometimes left-hand hanging

Have no idea about the Ripple Edge, but I can see different bolster between your posted Ripple Edge picture and Grohmann #1 knife.

Cannot tell the difference if you prefer to take either Ripple Edge or Grohmann as EDC knife, but since I purchase mainly for collection, I prefer Grohmann, although no doubt, they are very comfort to handle and use, only take them out for camp or hiking sometimes.

AWESOME! Beautiful collection Dextar! That "Stag" handle #1 looks sooooo sweet!
One day, I'll have to buy the "Original" #1 Gorhmann.

http://www.othello1888.com.de/index...CrtvEPCwIoLT5MsotdVh035V-3JuFJtFXR7JIQnOxugVk

HARDBALL

 

[shortwinger]

I absolutely love the Grohmann’s, I have the #1 & #3. I also have a CS Canadian Belt knife and while it is a very good blade, it lacks the character of the Grohmann. I use the #3 as a work/hunting/utility blade and it has yet to let me down. In my opinion, they are worth every penny.

 

[Alberta Ed]

There are a lot of copies of the Grohman. None tops the original in my small brain. Original was in carbon steel. I believe the design won awards, but I cannot recall which ones. The most recent copy is by Cold Steel. It's still a big seller for Grohman according to their sales rep.

The D.H. Russell-designed Canadian Belt knife is on exhibit at the Museum of Modern Art in New York, I believe since 1962.

 

[HARDBALL]

I absolutely love the Grohmann’s, I have the #1 & #3. I also have a CS Canadian Belt knife and while it is a very good blade, it lacks the character of the Grohmann. I use the #3 as a work/hunting/utility blade and it has yet to let me down. In my opinion, they are worth every penny.

View attachment 1547883

Hi short,

Man, that #1 with "Stag" Handles is just so damn sweeeeet! Me wants!


HARDBALL

 

[HARDBALL]

The D.H. Russell-designed Canadian Belt knife is on exhibit at the Museum of Modern Art in New York, I believe since 1962.

Yes indeed! On exhibit at the Museum of Modern Art (as well it should be!)

HARDBALL