Semi-liner construction.

C

Corduroy

Joined
Apr 15, 1999
Messages
1,442
I received a new Military on Monday. It is fantastic - fixes virtually all of my gripes. I've been handling it day in and day out, and as my hand grows familiar with it, it is also stealing my heart. I am not prepared to call it my "favorite" over my AFCK, but when I want a functional folder (i.e. not the Civilian) it's definitely between those two. I trust it more and more as I handle it - the lock, the handle strength, the grip. But this trust has been slow in coming, and I'll tell you why:

It's that darn semi-liner setup. Yeah, it makes the knife thin. Yeah, it makes it light. Yeah, after spending time with the knife (my old one and this new one) I realize that it does the job. But the first thing I and many others thought when I picked it up and saw that setup was "Ack! How CHEAP!"

The first 15 minutes is the most importanat time you will spend with a knife. It's when you form your impressions, and when a sale is made. The partial liner may be a design hit, but it's a bomb in the "first impression" department. It doesn't inspire confidence - quite the opposite, it makes the knife seem chintzy and weak. I know NOW that this isn't so, but only because I've spent time with the knife. Whenever I mention the Military to most of my knife buddies, the first thing they say is "With that awful partial liner? You BOUGHT that???"

My point: is the advantage in weight and thickness worth the cost in buyer impression? A knife doesn't just have to be strong and secure - it has to LOOK strong and secure. I admit that I was disappointed to learn that the Starmate would be built the same way, though I trust it functionally and I'd still buy a Starmate if you told me the blade was aluminum. But I implore Spyderco to abandon this mode of construction - it's losing you sales!

Just put a full liner in and mill out a little slot below the lock to allow it to travel farther when the detent ball is depressed. The knife will be 3/64" thicker, but it will look much sturdier and have less complex machining overall. Heck, throw a liner in the other side while you're at it. The result might not actually be a stronger knife, but to the eyes and mind of the buyer it would sure seem like one.

Just my take on this. Let's hear your thoughts, folks
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
My hope, from the standpoint of a user, not a marketer/PR man, is that you strive to make the best knife you can make, and not do anything unnecessary, and certainly nothing detrimental(!) simply for appearances' sake. Least of all on the Military.

I don't know if it's true, but I've heard that vacuum cleaner manufacturers could easily produce quieter vacuum cleaners, but the customers want loud ones because they assume they are more powerful. I think it's the same for dish soap and shampoo lather as well. More suds means cleaner hair, right?

I prefer that you make HONEST knives, and teach us to appreciate them if necessary. This is how you will improve the industry in the long run.

David Rock

[This message has been edited by David Rock (edited 27 May 1999).]
 
Thank you, David, for speaking my mind. Why put unnecessary things on a knife that serve only to make it heavier? Spyderco does not seem to cater to the "fantasy buyer" and I, for one, hope that they never do. Asfor appearances, the Glock pistols look nasty and cheap, what with their plastic frames and all, but they work wonderfully well. To quote Miis van der Rohe, "Form should follow function."

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh
 
Oooooh, good comparison with the Glocks. I think you might have just made me do a complete 180 on this one.

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
There is something to be said about a heftier knife but in the Military's case I don't think weight will equate better function.

Initial impression are important and I thought some of the same things that Courduroy said but as I became more educated I forgot all about 'em.

When I want a knife that I can count on 100%, I grab the Military. I just did a thread about a camping trip and I took the Military to back up a FB. Someone pointed out that since when is a folder the primary camping knife?

Why would I do that? Easy, the Military passes all the utility and function tests. It ain't gonna break and I trust it and that's why I want in a knife. Trust in its function and even though she may not be the prettiest gal at the dance, she can boogie (sorry I'm a 70's guy)

I have folders that have dual liners, thicker scales and are a blast to play with but if I don't completely trust them, they stay on light duty.

Good points, all.

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~Greg~

 
Wow! I love where this thread went..Vince and I talked to Corduroy in icq, but will tell you here that Vince says the liner is stronger because it's buried....and if you'd like to send him an email, he'd be glad to hash out details there with you...send it to me, I'll see that he gets it..

BTW, to the 70's guy Kodiak..I'm the one that can boogie...

Danelle
 
This is akin to the reason that a lot of people want stainless knife blades. The belief is that stainless is just some property that some steels have and that there are no disadvantages of having it. So if it is not stainless then its of lower quality.

Instead of changing the design there should be an effort made to educate the buyers as other people have noticed. This is the kind of thing that any dealer should have on their website for example.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 27 May 1999).]
 
Speaking from experience I have to say this is one of the strongest and most reliable folders I have ever owned.

The only knife I have ever had more confidence in as far as lock-up goes is the Sebenza, and I find I am favoring my Military even over that one as of late.

It is not the prettiest knife and first impressions can be a bit off-putting, but once you put that badboy to the test you will never look back....

LONG LIVE THE MILITARY

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God bless!

Romans 10:9-10

"Military" Fans Unite!!

 
I agree with William. I carried the Sebenza for years and now I favor the Military, light, great grip shape and the blade is one of the most useful utility blades I have owned. I don't pry with mine... yet...
 
Corduroy wasn't questioning the Military's strength and performance, but the first impression it makes to uneducated buyers at a local store. When I first read his post I did not respond right away as I somewhat agreed to his proposition, but something at the back of my mind told me to consider the cons.

Good succint point, Hugh. I believe Herr Gaston didn't give a damn about how his G17 looked, but how it performed. If buyers followed their first impression, Glocks would've been history insteading of making history. At the end of the day, function rules over form.

Instead of changing the design there should be an effort made to educate the buyers as other people have noticed.
Click to expand...
Bingo, Cliff!

I love this forum!


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"It is better to understand a little than to misunderstand a lot." -- Anonymous


 
I love my Tactical Tupperwear (GLOCK) and my Military. I agree with the first impressions, I felt the knife was "missing" something, liners. But, after playing with it, it is a carry knife. I felt the same way about the Glocks when we first started with them... plastic POS... but, 43,000 rounds through my 19 teaching semi-auto transition without a hitch. I wish my Harley was as reliable.
 
Just bought my Military yesterday...

Frail-looking knife... but looks can be deceiving. It's so light for a huge folder. The blade is sharp, but I had to resharpen it to my own definition of "sharp".. hehehe..

Now, where do I test this thing... hmmm.. Shane? Titan? anybody?
smile.gif


Dan
 
Here are my thoughts. First impressions are important to an uninformed person in most cases. Why do cheap flashy knives sell? Simple they make an impression and fool those who do not know any better. Knives like the military IMO are purchased by people who tend to be informed about knives. Why do I say that? Simple. I sell knives and I can tell you a person is not going to spend over a hundred dollars on a knife unless they know a thing or two about the particular knife. The military has an excellent reputation and has recieved much praise in the knife press. I loved the designe so much when I first saw it. I bought three! Those were the first gen. knives and I loved them. Sure they had problems. But they sure do perform! In fact they performed better than other folder I had ever owned. It is my firm belief that when Spyderco goes to the new lock. The knife will be as close to perfect as a factory knife could be. Also for those folks who time and again complain about folders such as the military flexing. By a fixed blade an quit you whining. Now before Someone says well it's easier to carry a folder for defens. I ask this question. How many knife fights have you all been in? Sorry for getting off track slightly. I just had to vent
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Regards,

Tom Carey
 
I agree with most of what folks have said here, but I do think we are carrying the "uneducated buyers" argument too far. I'm not talking about uneducated buyers. I'm talking about genuine "knife guys" who have been selling and/or collecting knives for years. When they first saw the Military, they held it up next to its Benchmade competitors and shook their heads. Without a "Destroyer" like Spyderco has, it's hard to believe that this knife will stand up to the abuse that a double-liner knife will take.

Before I came on this forum, I wouldn't have touched this knife with a ten-foot pole, and please don't tell me I was an "uneducated" buyer interested only in "cheap, flashy knives." My opinion was (happily) changed by A) seeing that so many clearly reasonable folks swore by the new incarnation of the knife, and B) reading Sal Glesser's outright statement that it was stronger than the AFCK in testing. Well, now I know, but I still doubt I can win over more than a few of my friends no matter how many times I make them play with the knife. That's not because they're "uneducated" but because they ARE educated and the Military, like a Glock pistol, flies in the face of everything they know about how such an item should be constructed.

Please understand that Spyderco fans are grossly over-represented on this forum, and the knife world at large may not be so universally enamoured of the Military - certainly the folks I know aren't. Forget the knife mags, as those are just giant paid advertisements anyhow, and talk around. If we believe in the Military (and I DO), we must spread the word to those skeptics who look at the knife's construction and reasonably (but incorrectly) assume it must be weak. If we don't want to change the knife, then we have to change people's minds.

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
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