Serious Newbie Sharpening ?

[k12s]

Hello All,

Great board. I have a Spyderco sharpening system with the UF stones, but I'm not satisfied with how sharp my knives are getting. All my knives are very sharp, but I want razor sharp blades. All my blades will shave hair, but I want to know that extra step that some of you know how to get.

I'm a new knife nut. I have a BM 740 and a CBL M-Type. s30v and 440c. The BM chips at 20 degrees with the UF stones. It's very light, but I can feel it. The CBL gets really sharp, but I feel there is another degree of sharpness I'm missing. I have sharpened both knives probably 20 times, so it's not my technique. Believe me they are Very sharp.

My question is how do I get a blade "tree topping sharp". Do I need a Chinese 15k or another stone? Maybe a good strop and some diamond paste? It seems to me if you have to have a strop then your not doing something right. I have tried the cardboard strop with some paste, but the difference is not what I'm looking for.

Any help from people that really know would be appreciated.

PS. I made my Spyderco sharpener go to 11 degrees a side and it's still not as sharp as I want.

Thanks in advance for any replies. This is a fantastic board!!

 

[psycho78]

Stop worrying about angles. Too many people get so tripped up on this angle business. Throw the sharpmaker in the trash (hate it) and get some dmt diasharp diamond bench stones and some fine hard arkansas or india stones. Make yourself a strop with a good piece of wide leather mounted on a 2x4, or other very flat piece of wood. Load the strop with some green chrome compound, and strop very lightly. Doesn't take much.

Like you said, you dont have to strop...I get my blades razor sharp with just the stones. It depends on what kind of edge you want, and what job the knife will be doing. Stropped polished edges are wonderful for cutting wood and leather, and making hair pop off your arm. Not so great on other hard materials. Sometimes stropping improperly can ruin alot of the hard work you just put into your knife. A properly and carefully stropped knife will produce an edge that is a pretty scary thing.

The diasharp stones are a great thing. They have cut my sharpening time in half, and produce great edges. They stay absolutely flat too. Try em out. Get a combination x-coarse and x-fine. Got mine from the woodcraft site.

 

[Soilarch]

I'd say it's time you move to, and start "playing" with, strops. I don't have much experience with that area because I can't afford knives (steels) that warrant the extra effort to get them nasty sharp. Painless/pull-less shaving is good enough for me. The edges don't last very long as they are. And since I can't stand to carry a knife that won't shave...yet ask them to do things that I know destroys the edge... I just spend my time with stones.

 

[hardheart]

It seems to me if you have to have a strop then your not doing something right.

why would you believe this? I use a strop because it carries the chromium oxide. I use chromium oxide because the abrasive is 0.5 micron and a lot cheaper than getting a waterstone in that grit. If you want to get your knives sharper, you need finer abrasives.

As for tree topping, it depends on the hair somewhat, but you should be tree topping with spyderco UF at least, some have reported doing it at coarser levels.

S30V chipping at 20 degrees per side is not a good thing. How much pressure are you applying, and are you using the corners of the stones a lot?

 

[k12s]

Thanks for the quick replys guys

I have been looking at stops from The Well Shaved Gentleman, but is a strop really going to have a effect/affect (can't remember which) on s30v, 440c, zdp-189 (I'm expecting a Krien regrined Endura ZDP-189 back any day).

...also the dmt diamonds. Why would I need diamonds? I'm not tryig to hog off any steel. I want to be able to put the blade under a microscope at 200x and it pop!!

Thanks again. I'm one of those people that wants perfection. I want the sharpest knife in Tennesse.

I have read hundreds of sharpening post. I'm looking for that extra edge.

 

[k12s]

why would you believe this? I use a strop because it carries the chromium oxide. I use chromium oxide because the abrasive is 0.5 micron and a lot cheaper than getting a waterstone in that grit. If you want to get your knives sharper, you need finer abrasives.

As for tree topping, it depends on the hair somewhat, but you should be tree topping with spyderco UF at least, some have reported doing it at coarser levels.

S30V chipping at 20 degrees per side is not a good thing. How much pressure are you applying, and are you using the corners of the stones a lot?

I have read that BM hardens their blades in the worst way. I don't know personaly, but It does chip on Spyderco UF. I have used nothing but the weight of the knife at 200 strokes a side on UF. I love the knife, but for a high angle flat grind, the steel could be better.

Like I said I'm loking for that perfect edge plus I enjoy trying to find it.

 

[Cougar Allen]

Welcome to Bladeforums!

Let’s see if we can find the right forum …

 

[hardheart]

but is a strop really going to have a effect/affect (can't remember which) on s30v, 440c, zdp-189 (I'm expecting a Krien regrined Endura ZDP-189 back any day).

...also the dmt diamonds. Why would I need diamonds? I'm not tryig to hog off any steel. I want to be able to put the blade under a microscope at 200x and it pop!!

The important thing is to use appropriate abrasives to load the strop. Diamond will cut any of those steels, you just need a base for it. A strop can provide that. You can use paper, cardboard, leather, etc.

A lot of sharpening nuts like to hog steel, especially the darksiders. If you're going to sharpen flat to the stone, a D8XX will help speed things up. Plus, the diasharps go down to 3 micron, getting around that Spyderco UF territory.

 

[psycho78]

...also the dmt diamonds. Why would I need diamonds? I'm not tryig to hog off any steel. I want to be able to put the blade under a microscope at 200x and it pop!!

I have used nothing but the weight of the knife at 200 strokes a side on UF.

Thats why you need the diamonds. You're absolutely wasting your time with 200 strokes on an ultra fine hone. Set your edges up with the diamond hone. The diamond stones cut fast and they're dead flat. Follow that up with the fine hard stones and the strop.

 

[psycho78]

I have been looking at stops from The Well Shaved Gentleman, but is a strop really going to have a effect/affect (can't remember which) on s30v, 440c, zdp-189

Make yourself one. Razor strops arent always the best for knives and woodworking tools. Mount a wide piece of leather on a flat 2x4 or something. You really dont have to use any compound. Dry leather works great. I actually prefer it.

It doesnt matter what steel it is. It will have an effect on any steel that will form a burr that needs to be removed. The strop is the trick. With some practice, burrs can be removed on the stone by slightly elevating the blade and making light passes. I just prefer a few low angled passes on the leather.

 

[k12s]

Thanks for the replys.

The blade Physco78 was sharp before I went 200 hundred strokes a side, but it's not like a razor which is what I want. There is chips in the 4in. Dejavoo at 20 degress. UGH!

Hardheart. I'm now thinking about strops again. Is a strop better than a 12 or 16k stone?

Thanks,

This has been really helpfull.

 

[psycho78]

If the blade was already sharp, and you hit it 200 strokes on a side with an ultra fine hone, then you probably rolled the edge, dulling it. You'd be surprised how few strokes it takes on an ultra fine hone if everything else was done properly.

How are you getting chips in your blade?

Angles will frustrate you to no end. Stop paying attention to them, and pay more attention to your hand eye coordination. Get your face right down into the stone, and see how your edge is laying on it, and coming across. I see how the light plays off the edge and the stone, raise or lower the angle with my hand accordingly (fractions of a degree) and do everything very slowly and meticulously.

I have a 9000 grit japanese waterstone, and have used it sometimes like a strop, pulling the blade away. Knives will cut right into these fine soft stones if you're not careful. They need to be flattened regularly and are messy. 9000 grit will put a super fine edge on your knives and tools. Probably as fine as you'd ever need.

 

[Mtn Hawk]

k12s--

Are you getting a burr?

If not, you are not sharpening all the way to the edge and so can't get the edge as sharp as possible.

 

[k12s]

Thanks for the replys,

Psycho, I'm not rolling the edge. There is no burr ( It's sharp). I have shaving edges. I'm just trying to get that Kriened regrined edge or closer to it than I have now. It's got to be the angles. The CBL 440C has a great edge, but I think it's too thick. The BM...... well it chips. The chips are small, but they are still there. It does get sharp on white stone on the corners at 20 degrees per side. Hell it will shave like a champ now. I have it a 12 degrees a side with micro chps in it.

Like I said earlier I enjoy playing with the edges of knives.

Maybe some diamonds to grine down the angles and the then think about strops or waterstones. (CBL)

Thanks again for the replys. I'll be thinking about this for a few days before I decide which method to try.

 

[Zeasor]

...The BM chips at 20 degrees with the UF stones. It's very light, but I can feel it. The CBL gets really sharp, but I feel there is another degree of sharpness I'm missing. I have sharpened both knives probably 20 times, so it's not my technique. Believe me they are Very sharp...

CHIPPING: Try a lite, gentle stropping stroke (edge trailing) on the flat sides of the UF stones. See if that minimizes the chipping. It's an awkward stroke so go slowly with focus and watch the tip of the blade.

ANOTHER DEGREE OF SHARPNESS: It's simply a matter finer "grinding" and technique. Stropping with compounds (as advised above) will take you to the next "degree" if your steel is adequate for it.

 

[k12s]

CHIPPING: Try a lite, gentle stropping stroke (edge trailing) on the flat sides of the UF stones. See if that minimizes the chipping. It's an awkward stroke so go slowly with focus and watch the tip of the blade.

ANOTHER DEGREE OF SHARPNESS: It's simply a matter finer "grinding" and technique. Stropping with compounds (as advised above) will take you to the next "degree" if your steel is adequate for it.

Thanks.

I tried the stropping stroke with the UF's and it did get rid of alot of those small chips in the BM. A couple of micro chips are still there. I'll continue to work on the edge today and see if I can get them out.

Where do you buy stropping compounds? I've been to Home Depot and Lowes, but can't find anything. Right now I have a cardboard strop with Mother's metal polish on it. It seems to make the edge like a mirror, but that is about it.

Thanks for all the replys!

 

[Broos]

It sounds to me like you are doing OK now, but want a fine polished edge.

I set up some flat backed strops (I have some made with wood and some with poly cutting board material) with diamond paste/mineral oil mixture. I did not like the feel on the strop with the oil based diamond paste alone, and did not like it mixed with oil or leather conditioner - too slippery. After using an old belt for a while I sprung for some leather and some CrO2 gel from Handamerican. Then I mixed the diamond paste with this gel, and really liked how the strop feels with this. You will be surprised at how quickly you can take a 600 or 1200 grit DMT made edge to a mirror polished razor sharp edge with backed strops loaded with diamonds.

I use low angles and substantial pressure on the edge. This is against common advice, but for me this is the fastest way to get there - it works a lot faster than a belt sander set up with a leather belt (I got one of those, too), because more pressure can be used. If you're careful with the stropping angle you can do this without rounding the edge, but usually I'll use a fine stone to reset the edge, than finish with a few strokes on the 1 micron diamond loaded strop. After using the 10, 6, 3, and 1 micron loaded strops, I do not even use CrO2 alone anymore because I really couldn't tell that it made any difference (or I got used to how aggressive the diamonds are).

Get a loupe so you can see the edge, and that will help you see problems.

And don't take everything you read as gospel. There are many things you can learn from the many years of experience on this board, but one thing I can add is different sharpening techniques work differently for different folks - you just got to find a way that you are happy with & works good for you.

And DMT makes a 3 tube set of 6, 3, and 1 micron. It is not the cheapest stuff out there, but was readily available for me at Woodcraft, and has lasted a 3-4 years for me with around half of it left still. A little goes a long way.

 

[Zeasor]

Thanks.

I tried the stropping stroke with the UF's and it did get rid of alot of those small chips in the BM... I'll continue to work on the edge today...

Where do you buy stropping compounds?...

Wow! That was fast. Let's keep you going => => => to Sears. Several compounds are available, probably displayed near the grinders. I expect to hear back from you in 1-2 hours. Others will advise on the plethora of on-line sources for compounds.

If you are interested in sharp just for sharp's sake, try the Scary Sharp procedure. You can go even finer with this procedure by using grits of 20,000+ available from automotive paint and body suppliers. Be careful tho, waving a Scary Sharp knife around in the air could split an atom and blow your hand off.

 

[thombrogan]

Is a strop better than a 12 or 16k stone?

Absolutely! A piece of float glass, a sheet of computer paper, and some very high grit/low micron diamond paste will cost so much less than a comparable waterstone. There are $20 12,000 grit waterstones available at a few stores and I have yet to find anyone who enjoys using them. There are 10,000 to 16,000 grit waterstones whose users can't get enough of - they're so good - but the 1 micron aluminum oxide polishing paper from ottofrei.com that I use over a piece of glass gives the same edge and costs only $2 instead of $70-120.

 

[HoB]

I have sharpened both knives probably 20 times, so it's not my technique.

You can get a tree-topping edge with the Sharpmaker and standard angles without any additional abrasives, there are several people here that have accomplished that, so it is very likely your technique. I have sharpened my knifes each probably anywhere between 50 and 100+ times and there is still plenty of room to improve for me. I am pretty sure you are carrying a burr from a previous step. It is very difficult to detect. I am not talking about the big burrs from rough shaping, but those that Verhoeven's microscope images show, for example.

You are at a point, where improvements in the edge become difficult to quantify. I would strongly recommend buying a Radio Shack microscope and to establish a consistent way of measuring your results. Whether you do newspaper cutting, or thread cutting or rubberband cutting or whatever else you might think of doesn't matter, but use something that clearly marks your progress.

On the chipping: I would bring out the coarse stones, and completely reset the edge. Sounds like it got weakened during factory sharpening. If that doesn't help, you got a lemon.