serrated vs. plain edge

Joined
Jun 9, 2000
Messages
109
What are the benefits for serrated (partially) edge knives over plain old fashion edges?

I am astonished at the number of folders that are only available with serrated edges.

Is this a marketing ploy or do these edges hold benefits for the average every day user/carrier.

I understand that serrated edges cut car safety-belts with ease, but are they worth the difference in price and difficulty in sharpening.

By the way, I am new to knives to forgive my silly question.

Judge Blackhawk


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Government's ability to control is directly related to it's ability to disarm it's citizens. - Judge Blackawk
 
If you do a search on this you will get tonnes of info!!! Yes, the serrated edge thing, or at least the combo edge, is "popular" due to marketing. Either get full serrations or plain edge says I. And I prefer plain edges. Sharpen your plain edge with a coarse stone and it will zip through seat belts without any problem. Serrations aren't that hard to sharpen if you have a Sharpmaker from Spyderco. You asked a good question. Read lots on this before you buy if that is why you were asking. For everyday kinda stuff, a plain edge probably will serve you better over a serrated blade and definitely over a combo edged blade.

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"Come What May..."
 
hello,

Serrations suck!! most people cant sharpen them right, they wear away , look ugly, cut funny,,,weaken the blades lateral strength,
LOOK UGLY!!!(again).

my .02

allen


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Allen Blade
Spokane,WA USA

" You can make great knives and sell a few, Or make Great AFFORDABLE knives and sell many"
WEB SITE : http://hometown.aol.com/bladecutlery/index.html
 
judge
This topic has been done to death.
Do a search and check past threads.
One thing I find interesting is that back 4 to 5 years ago prior to these forums people relentlessly argued the merits of serrated blades in such places as rec knives.
When I argued and said they sucked and were actually inferior at their claim to fame ,rope cutting, i was flamed to pieces.
I guess reality finallty set in.

[This message has been edited by TomW (edited 06-25-2000).]
 
Reality came about through testing and ideas on sharpening. Almost everything on sharpening says take a coarse hone and hone and then get the finest hone you can and sharpen and then you have a hair shaving sharp edge. Well, this is great for peeling potatoes, fighting knives, shaving, etc. while most knife using tasks need a slicing type edge. Joe Talmadge is the one who has been teaching us that you can stop after using a coarse or medium stone and you ahve an aggressive edge that won't shave super well but it will slice the heck out of whatever you want- exactly what the serrations were designed to do- but now you have the added versatility of the plain edge. You can push cut with a plain edge WAY better than a serrated edge, the cutting is smoother than a serration, etc. And then you have guys like me who bought a combo edge knife thinking you get the best of both worlds and then realize you are actually getting a compromize. It is best to buy an Endura (serrated) and a plain edged blade and carry both or if you carry only one, leave a coarser edge on your plain edged blade.

Is there any better term than "plain edge"?

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"Come What May..."
 
...better term? How about "non-serrated?"
biggrin.gif
 
I took a SAK (Adveturer, I think; one of the locking Victorinoxes, anyway), and sharpened it with the fine file on the SwissTool, but not deeply (as in, I sharpened it normally, then filed it until the edge looked scratched, but not actually serrated). It still cut paper fine (not as well as a polished plain-edge, but well enough for opening envelopes and the like). The next day, we smashed a car as a fundraiser (pay a couple bucks to hit it a few himes with a sledge hammer). At the end of the day, I decided to test the knife out. So, I leaned into the car and grabbed one of the seatbelts. Seeing this, a friend of mine pulled out his combo-edge Spyderco (I don't pay attention to their knives, so I don't know what model, but it was similar in blade lenght to the SAK). He grabbed another seatbelt, and we both cut. He had to make repeated passes, sawing at the belt, and the knife caught and the released several times. Had the belt been on an actual person, that person would be a bit on the bloody side. The SAK, however, sliced the belt in two clean passes, never snagging ang getting out of control. Unless the application would be better performed with a saw, a serrated blade is not a good choice. If it would be better performed with a saw, use a saw!

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
Judge - Please try to keep in mind that "not all serrated edges are created equal".

Wheh Spyderco introduced the serrated edge folding knife in 1982, there were none.


Spyderco's edge performed so well that in less than 10 years, every knife mfr in the world was offering serrations similar in appreaance to Spyderco's. None have come close to equalling Spyderco's serration performance.

If you are going to judge serrations fairly, get a Spyderco Endura or Delica with teeth, use and compare yourself. Then we can discuss the fine details. To lump all serrations together is akin to saying all knives are the same. I'm assuming that you've learned enough to refute that all knives are the same.

When we do edge retention testing (special machine) the standard for serrated edges is twice that of plain edges. Do yourself (& serrations) a favor and seek your own truth.

sal

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"There seems to be an amazing connection between what people do... and what happens to them"


 
The advantage of serrations is that they cut better than plain edges when dull, as long as you are using a sawing action. If you keep a plain edge sharp, it will cut anything as well or better than a serrated edge. Serrations are popular with people who won't or don't keep edges sharp and they are also popular because of "fashion."

On the negative side, they are hard to sharpen. I'm willing to bet that the tide will swing again in favor of the plain edge in a year or two. Combo edges have only outsold plain edges beginning last year so the "fashion" is fairly recent in history. Take care.

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Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
 
If you look at a serration, it is fundamentally a curley edge. Its unique properties are that the edge orientation to the direction of cutting varies, and it is sharpened at a much finer angle than a conventional edge. Common sense tells me I can change the angle of attack by bending my wrist, and I can sharpen my conventional edges at a finer angle and achieve the same results without any of the drawbacks of a serration.

I do not mean to contradict Sal Glesser. If he says his serrated edges lasted longer on his testing gadget I believe him. I just wonder if his testing gadget accurately reflects real world cutting.

My notion is that serrations are preferred by people who don't like to sharpen. Once I figured out how to sharpen an edge so that it performed just as well as a serrated edge, with a fine included angle and on a course grit sharpener, serrations became basically obsolete for me because there was nothing to be gained by having a knife that was more difficult to sharpen.
 
People who are raised in homes where no one sharpens the knives (this is the majority of the population) "learn" that the only knives that will cut anything are the serrated ones. If they don't do the cooking in the house the only "sharp" knife they have ever used is a serrated steak knife at the table. If they have cooked the only dull knives in the house that would cut were the serrated knives and electric carving knife. With this background they are prone to buying serrated carry knives even without any advertising hype. The serrations also look "wicked" and add a macho air to serrated knives.

If you are raised sharpening your own knives you learn that serrated knives are a royal pain in the butt.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 06-26-2000).]
 
I carry plain edges almost exclusively, and agree that at least some people who swear by serrated performance simply haven't learned proper sharpening strategy. However, I think the reaction to serrations has gone a bit too far, and people are more down on them than they should be.

In my experiences, serrations do seem to cut longer, work better than plain edges (even properly sharpened ones) on harder objects, and do a very nice job zipper-cutting objects whose diameter is much smaller than the diameter of the serrations.

I think serrations typically work based on three features. First, they are typically chisel ground to a very thin edge. But this isn't unique to serrations -- good plain-edge sharpeners have always sought thin edges for performance. Second, the inside of the serrations are little hooks, presenting a constantly changing angle to the thing being cut. So even when the insides dull a bit, for format reason alone they still cut. With a plain edge, one can swivel one's wrist to change angles, to somewhat simulate this.

Third, and perhaps most importantly, serrations have peaks. They may be round, like Benchmades, or sharp, like Spydercos, but they have peaks. The three features of the serration work together. The serrated edge is laid down on the object, and pressure is put on the peaks, which sink quickly and easily into the object. This is akin to someone stepping on your foot wearing sneakers (plain edge) or high heels (serrated edge). The points on a serrated delica penetrate deeply, immediately. Once sunk, the curved, ultra-thin-ground valleys cut their way through on the slice, and as you go through the points keep penetrating downwards. On top of that, the points seem to take a lot of the dulling, leaving the valleys sharp -- with a plain edge, the whole thing gets dull with every cut. And even when the serration valleys start dulling, the hooks still seem to cut.

Grind your plain edge thin and coarse, and it can approach serrated performance. On soft rope, it's not too hard to match or beat serrated performance. As the rope gets harder, you'll see serrated performance start to pull away.

I still believe a thin, coarsely-ground plain edge is the best choice for me. However, someone cutting hard plastics and the like might find serrations work better. Anyone having trouble sharpening, or not keeping their edge thin and coarse, will definitely find serrations working better.


Joe
 
For those that ask why serrations stay useably sharp longer, it's mostly because of the greater edge length. Since the serrated edge curves in and out, if you straightened the edge out, it would be much longer than a plain edge with the same overall blade dimensions (did that make any sense). There are also some other factors, as Mr. Talmadge pointed out, but the edge length one is the most important. The serrated edge does stay workably sharp for a long time, but I happen to be able to sharpen knives, so I don't have a problem with them not being sharp. I guess sif you want to pretty much neglect your knife, serrations would be the way to go. I very well may pick up a fully-serrated Spyderco one of these days, as sort of a small, folding saw, but I would never consider a serrated knife as a primary (or even secondary) blade. I don't cut enough semi-hard materials on a regular basis to really justify carrying one, but I might want one for camping, to cut smaller, green sticks.

--JB



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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
Wife has a fully serrated pink Delica she uses in the garden. Yes it is a PITA to sharpen, but using a sharpmaker I can keep it almost sharp as new with only a few minutes work. She uses it to cut open bags of anything used in the garden and pruning plants. She likes it because the pink really stands out in the garden and the serrations keep on cuttin'.

We both have harpies that are usually used for light pruning, ie deadheading.

Both blades have a place. Just keep that in mind when making a decision on the right blade to use.

It also helps justify(??) that next knife you just "have" to buy.
biggrin.gif


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Dwight

It's a fine line between "a hobby" and "mental illness".
 
Dull serrations work by localized breaking and tearing rather than cutting. It is divide and conquer. When the blade is used in a sawing motion the teeth apply their force to subsections of the material and rip it apart. The nonuniform application of force is particularly useful against fibrous materials where you work on fewer fibers at a time than you would with a smooth edge. Another advantage of the sawing action is that you are pulling material out of the cutting area sideways. A smooth blade compresses material to the sides of the blade as it wedges through the object being cut. A serrated edge works crudely like a saw to pull and fold material out of the cut region. A coarsely sharpened blade can do some of the same, but does not divide and conquer as well as true serrations.
 
Spyderco serrations work really well for peeling apples, at least for a right-handed person like me. The one-sided edge bevel causes the edge to dive just beneath the skin and stay there as as the blade tends to follow naturally the curve of the fruit. Serrations also work well on frozen bagels and hard-baked meatloaf crust.

Serrations do not work at all well for scraping decals off of glass or for trimming thin materials against a hard surface.

David Rock




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AKTI Member # A000846
Stop when you get to bone.
 
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