serrations

[paintfool]

I need some input on how to do a useful serrated blade.
I have found all kinds of cool tips and tricks searching the old posts, but one thing that has never really come up is the actual pattern and size of the serrations.
right now I'm using an 1/8" file.
I'm thinking about doing 3 in 1/8" the 1 in 3/16" and so on...
like a pattern of 3 small then one a little bigger.
I have to say I like the looks of this pattern, but does it really offer anything other than looks?
TIA Steve

 

[Steve Hayden]

How do serrations add looks?

IMO serrations are for people who can't sharpen a knife. A really sharp straight edge will absolutely outcut a serrated one on anything I use a knife for.

 

[Mike Hull]

I agree with Steve^^. I just don't like serrations.

 

[paintfool]

well it's a double sided knife that I'm working on right now, the main edge is a straight edge and the back of the blade will be serrated, as well as a line cutter.
I'm working on a dive knife for my father and am just going by what he requested.

I've been working on this knife for too long.... I'm almost finished and I can't wait to be rid of it.

I guess I should have stuck with simple blades being a noob

doing 4 bevels and trying to get them parallel has been complete hell.....

and he better like it!!!!!!! grrrrr lol

Steve.

 

[elvenbladesmith07]

I find the only time serations out cut a straight edge is cutting tree limbs, you cant slice through tree limbs as fast with a plain blade. aside from that its a pain to try to whittle with the tip of a knife, so i hate serrations too!

 

[Steve Hayden]

I generally carry an axe or saw for cutting things too large to chop through with a knife. Both of these cut far better than a serrated knife blade. If I need firewood, I am usually looking for dead wood that I can break.

I have no use for a serrated knife blade.

 

[Matt Shade]

How do serrations add looks?

IMO serrations are for people who can't sharpen a knife. A really sharp straight edge will absolutely outcut a serrated one on anything I use a knife for.

Thats funny, a polished edge won't do dick on a nylon horse halter or heavy poly rope, but a well sharpened serrated edge goes right through. Least I always thought I knew how to sharpen a knife

Maybe you should learn how to sharpen serrations

 

[ddavelarsen]

No one's actually answered your question, have they? Maybe that's because serrations are hard to do well. I think I'd use a mill to do this but not sure what cutters would be best. If I was going to I'd probably work something out by mounting my dremel over the table on my mill, and use appropriate diamond grinding bits. Or you could use a cross slide table on your drill press? Dunno, just thinking out loud. If you figure out a good way to do this, please share. I'm in the "No serrations!" camp myself but you never know when someone with good money is going to insist...

 

[F. Allin Kahrl]

I, too, am in the No Serrations camp. That said...

When I make this (don't ask) I plan to use a milling machine. I'll be working with annealed stock, so I don't need to worry about diamnd burrs or any such trickery. I'll tilt either the blade or the headstock so that as I approach the blade with the side of an ordinary end mill, I'll get one serration. It's not a terribly exciting serration scheme, but it should be straightforward to make and will look the part (it's more of a prop than a tool).

And, hey, it looks a lot like the serrations that those Cutco people are in such a froth about all the time.

paintfool: I can provide you with a more in-depth description of what I'm talking about if this doesn't make sense.

-Allin

 

[paintfool]

I've been doing it with the good ol' file and using a rod as a guide, it looks cool, but I want it to work as well...

I guess I should have worded the question differently.

is there one pattern that will work better than others, are there any benefits to making a pattern instead of just using all the same size notches?

the back on rlinger's tracker model is amazing...

anyway, I have already almost completed it so I guess this is more for future reference.

Thanks again, Steve.

 

[AwP]

Except for hype from companies promoting their own special serration pattern, I've never heard of one pattern cutting better then another. It's usually a good idea to have the serrations on only one side, so you can sharpen the other side on a regular stone and it gets the serrations sharpened.

A good compromise between serrated and polished is the rough sharpen. Use a low grit (maybe 180 or so) to sharpen and it gives micro serrations that seem to function as well as large ones for ripping type cuts without messing up the kind of slicing that can be done with a plain edge too.

 

[Trick]

I am glad some people got around to saying what I was thinking. I was bummed seeing someone ask a question about doing something and getting jumped on for asking. I know it wasn't quite that bad, but...
Anyway, making quality digging tools for metal detecting is one of the reasons I got interested in knife making in the first place. When retrieving a coin from the ground, quite often it is under a root. If you chop a root with a straight edge you will damage a valuable coin. Unless your luck is a lot better than mine. Now I am talking about a saw back and not on the cutting edge. But they are still serrations I would think?
I just use a triangle file. I bought some huge 12 inch polish made files on ebay just because an 8 inch slim taper is the biggest I could find anywhere around here. And I looked. I just use it to get them started and then switch to the smaller files.
Roger, if you see this, are your serrations on the tracker milled? I have been trying to figure out how to get gerber like serrations like on their saws.

 

[Burchtree]

Interesting thread -- I don't just a wee bit o' serrations on some knives. Sometimes they're just handy.

As far as different styles, I think all the manufactured ones work about the same. I would assume that the smaller the "slits" the better they would cut (like teeth on a bandsaw). Anyway, let us know how it turns out.

 

[paintfool]

LOL
I was kind of thinking the same thing as you Trick, I guess serrated blades are shamed upon around these parts.
I am doing the front side a normal straight edged blade and the back is serrated with a line cutter filed pretty close to where the guard will be.
The serrated back has many purposes in a dive knife, but mainly for really fast messy cuts that might save your life if your gear got caught up on something. The thing that has to be the #1 scare is steel fishing lines, not that a serrated blade would make that much of a diff, but if I had to choose a knife for that scenario, it would be the craziest looking saw you have ever seen aside from a pair of line cutters.

Thanks for the input guys, Steve.

 

[F. Allin Kahrl]

Here's just a little more input. (Sorry if you felt dissed.)

The best serrated blade I ever used was a Benchmade Leopard.

It's a little hard to see here, but the tips of the serrations have rounded profiles instead of points. This seemed to help the blade slide more easily than the usual shapes because it distributed the force on the blade a little better. The points wouldn't push into the material being cut as far, and I wouldn't have to saw as hard.

Of course, it was a bear to sharpen and I can't imagine a simple way to make them short of grinding some sort of crazy form cutter for a milling machine. As an alternative, what about something like this(?):

You could probably modify your existing file rig to do this. The chisel-pointed serrations would support themselves better than points and would be tougher as well. What do you think?

-Allin

 

[paintfool]

the small chisel points look like a really good idea to me, I might have to modify my current attempt and see how that works out... I won't really know if it was better or not until it's been used for a while, but being my fathers knife, I'm sure he'll criticize the hell out of me!

oh and don't worry about me feeling dissed, I didn't/don't. I know there are a lot of strong opinions floating around, and I love to hear them all, being as new as I am.

I'm sure I'll develop my own soon enough

Thanks again, Steve

 

[RokJok]

I'm working on a dive knife for my father...

Given that it's a dive knife, you may want to consider the sturdier-and-coarser-than-most serration pattern used by Jerry Busse on some of his one-off blades. The amount of blade left between individual teeth makes this a non-delicate & robust pattern. More good news: they can be made with just a round file. BTW, both blades pictured are double-ground, not chisel ground. So there is a matching serration groove filed into both sides of the blade for each divot/gullet.

Be aware, sharp inside corners (like the bottom of a V-slot serration) can serve as concentration points for stress vectors travelling through steel, tending to propogation of micro-cracks radiating from the angle at the inside corner. A radiused (rounded) inside corner doesn't concentrate the stress vectors as sharply and tends to distribute the represented force across the curve of the radius.

(edit to add) Not sure if this is a proprietary pattern, so an email to Jerry might be a decent courtesy to extend to a fellow blade maker.

p.s. I see that this is in line with Allin's modification of his original CAD pattern. What was that said about great minds???

 

[paintfool]

well I don't think we ever have to worry about mine looking as good as one of Jerry Busse's!
I'm using only round files right now as it is, so hopefully stress won't be much of an issue, I do like that idea, but I think I will make mine a lot closer together and smaller like Allin's cad pic above.
I'm almost finished of the serrations so I'll post a pic of it and then you guys can give me some feed back on it.
Cheers, Steve.

 

[Todd Robbins]

I don't currently own a knife with any serrations, but I discovered several years ago that serrations make short work of rope and cardboard, and they don't get dull (to the point of uselessness) nearly as fast a plain edge. If I were going to make serrations on a knife, I would use a round file and make all of the cuts the same size, on the same side of the blade. I don't see how varying size teeth would make any noticeable difference on a knife blade's performance, when cleaning out is not an issue. You could use a triangle file and alternate the cut from side to side, like on a handsaw, also. That would probably work great.

Todd

 

[paintfool]

here are a couple pics of what I ended up doing with this.
I used a point then a flat, then a point then another flat and so on....
best of both worlds? lol
so I'm another step closer to having this damn knife finished!
now I just need to do some more work on the handle end and finish out that line hook, then I'm on to hand sanding the mofo.

sorry the closer shots are a bit fuzzy, but that's just the good ol' digital zoom at work.... :barf:

Steve.