Setting stones in steel

tryppyr

tryppyr

Joined
Feb 5, 2010
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I just did a search and found nothing that seems to directly relate to my question, so I thought I'd post a new thread.

I'm working on a guard that I fashioned from a scrap piece of 1095. It's still in a very early state, but I have decided to set some cabochon stones in the ends. I've ordered the stones, which I believe will be low to medium profile stones, hemispheric (flat on the bottom, domed on the top).

My plan is to measure each stone with a digital caliper first. The eBay ads suggest that they should all be 4mm (or 6mm for a second group I bought), but I'm not counting on them being perfectly sized. Then I'll find the drill bit that most closely matches the size and drill deep enough to set the stone, but not so deep as to penetrate through to the matching stone on the other side. I'll then sand and polish the edges of the holes and glue the stones in place.

So to the question... is this the right approach? Or should I drill a hole that cuts through the guard and essentially glue the stones to each other instead of to the metal? Or maybe cut through with a smaller hole so that glue bonds to both the stones and the steel?

Here's another look at the guard in question to help you visualize what I'm thinking about.

Guard.JPG


BTW, I currently have no use for this guard I'm making... I just want to finish it as a totally separate exercise. And as an aside, the steel is .25 inch thick at the ends... if that makes a difference.

One last thing... should I HT the steel (after I'm finished making the holes, of course)? I'm thinking yes, to help prevent scratching.

- Greg
 
12345678910 said:
I can't answer that directly, but you may like this book too.

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Metalsmith-Illustrated-Handbook/dp/0871922401
Click to expand...

That book is very helpful and the author is also a knifemaker. I'd recommend everyone buy it at that price!

I'm no real jeweler but the use of glue is uncommon in setting stones, you want them held in by the metal. I'd consider using a burr to "tube set" them. I don't know if this would work with steel.

Tube setting tutorial. http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/tube-setting.htm

You might have to make a nickle silver gaurd or make it out of a metal that can be burnished easier than steel.

I'm waiting for Stacy's answer, lol!
 
Stonesetting cabuchons in steel is possible, I would not encourage it to be your first stonesetting experience. Gluing stones is something I would strongly discourage. Perhaps you should consider drilling oversize, then filling the hole with bronze (brazing rod), and beadsetting the stones. I will not work with really soft stones unless you have a fair amount of experience (and by all means do not try emeralds until you have lots of experience and money to throw away)

I would tell you not to start with this particular project as your first stone setting experience, but I know that you will likely ignore that advice

-Page
 
Well, I hesitate to create huge waves but here is my recomendation. It is very commonly successfully used. Pre finish the area where the stones are to go down to 600. Drill the holes after using an automatic punch to establish their positions. An automatic punch is one that has a pointed end . When you press on the punch, it will "fire" and create a dent. Before placing the stones finish the area to even polishing if thats what you want. There are several great glues that will hold the stones secure including ca. gel type and some sold to do this very job. Don't make a huge mess doing this , it will be difficult to clean it up. A tooth pick will help. Frank
 
Use brass, NS, or sterling tubing silver soldered in the holes. Bezel set the stones by burnishing the tubing over the edges.
Don't use glue.
 
Thanks for the advice, everyone. I'll hold off on this until the book arrives.
 
I've seen Keith Bagley do this several times as a demonstration now. Call a jewelery supply and order cabachon cups of the right size. You can then solder the cups onto the guard or whatever, clean up the soldering mess (pickling), and then set the stones in and burnish the edges of the cup around the stone. It's pretty easy.

-d
 
Geez Deker, that's cheating. kind of different than what the OP seemed to be looking for (stone set IN the quillion rather than on top which is why I didn't suggest it) but had the OP merely asked "how do I put a stone on this" that would have been my response.
In response to the suggestion that CA glue be used I would reply that glues ultimately fail due to differences in expansion between metal and stones and adhesion issues
Bill De Shiv's suggestion is one I have used and right on the money if you can get tubing the right size, it will stand slightly proud of the surface, but that is not a bad thing. When you are setting cabuchons, always make a thin wire ring that is snug to the inside of the bezel to support the edge of the stone where you are closing the bezel or raising beads so that the stone is not under tension from the setting pressures. Stones are good under compressive loads, but lousy in tension

-Page
 
OK, I sat back to let others respond.

Two ways
1) glue them in if the piece is merely decorative. Good grade epoxy will retain the stones well, but this is a low quality short cut. If there will be use, it won't be acceptable to most folks.
2) burnish or bead set them. This will require more skill, and the ability to "move" the metal. Nickel silver would be easier than steel, but properly annealed, steel can be worked.

The process is beyond a short post. A good book will help.

Third choice is to make the depressed seats with undercutting.....and fill them with enamel, or a contrasting metal. If brass rounds were soldered in place they could be domed for a nice antique look.
 
Interesting for sure, the more mechanical type fastening, but of the litteraly hundreds of stones I have installed with glue both cabochons and faceted ones, I have yet to hear of any falling out. For sure these have not been installed on knives that will be much used, so the meathod of attatchment has been good for the particular application it was used in and to say it was a low quality short cut was perhaps a bit of a hasty remark since it has worked well. If you want to see the application go to customknivegallery.com and scroll down to my name on the left hand side. Frank
 
Frank, I wasn't saying the knife will be low quality, I was saying that the technique will be lower quality compared to full setting. I agree that it is done all the time on art knives.

If I got Picasso to paint a picture of a dog on a hunting knife bolster, and got Ken Hurst to engrave the same scene on another knife, the Picasso would be a lower quality job. Not because he is a bad painter, or because the painting is worthless, but because it is not the proper technique for bolsters that will be used.

I didn't mention the bezel cups, because that would add additional work that Greg probably isn't set up for either. They are commonly used on elaborately embellished quilloins.
 
I found out yesterday that my wife retailed the book and the supplies she bought when she took a jewelry making class at the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston. She mentioned having the nickle silver setting wire and solder, so I'll see if I can get her to dig those things out.

Yesterday I drilled what I think of as the pilot dimples in the piece, after working a bit to shape the ends. The centers of the dimples seem nicely aligned with the center of the piece, but there is still some work to do to shape the balls at the ends of the piece properly. That's the main reason I drilled the dimples was to give me a better sense of how much material to remove (and where to remove it).

- Greg
 
Unless you are already very good at silver soldering, then the bead setting in steel might be easier. Soldering to steel is pretty much a one shot deal. If you don't get it right the first time and have voids in the seams, oxidation and scaling make it really hard, (if not impossible), to give it a second shot and fill the gaps. Also, if you get it too hot, oxidation becomes a major problem in spite of the flux. Iron oxide can also contaminate the silver solder making for some really brittle seams.

The stone settings should have been planned out in advance, not as a last minute after thought. It would have been much easier if the guard was out of a more suitable material. You really need to think these sorts of things out a little better first,... instead of this "merry go round" approach...
 
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If anyone is curious, these are the stones I'm considering...

4mm Unakites
Unakite.jpg


or 6mm Catseyes
Catseye.jpg
 
tryppyr said:
I suppose we each find a unique path to enlightenment. ;)
Click to expand...

Working backwards and going around in circles isn't anything new or unique,... just a common mistake with inexperienced smiths. I used to see the approach you are entertaining over and over again while I was teaching at the college. It might be a good idea to actually go to the nearest college and take a few classes in jewelry and metalwork first. You really can't expect much success until you have the skills and knowledge to pull it off... You'd be surprised how many times guys wanted to make a full blown Samurai sword for their first project in a 5 week course... Just trying to help.

... You could drill some holes through with a tiny diamond drill and gently rivet them down into depressions with some fine silver wire.
 
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