Shapton Glass grit progression and flatening solution

C

crowley213

Joined
Jun 15, 2020
Messages
53
New here in the forum, also new to the topic of sharpening with stones, therefore a few questions.

At this moment I am looking for a solution to sharpen as well the higher quality steel blades of my ZT pocket knifes (CPM S35VN, CPM 20CV) as some "ordinary" kitchen knifes.

After reading a lot of reviews and forum posts, especially also here, I have come to the conclusion that I will go for the Shapton Glass Stones as sharpening stones and the Atoma 140 diamond plate flattening solution.

Nevertheless I still have a few questions:

Does a grit progression of 220, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000 and 8000 make sense, means will such a progression cover my needs (okay, what I think are my "needs")? Yes, it may sound like an overkill, but considering all these stones is based on my thinking that I would like to have a solution that really covers all my needs and the fact that going for whatever solution step by step means some logistical drawbacks for me as I am not living in the U.S. (shipping cost, custom fees, ec.). Therefore I would like to go at this moment for a really complete solution, even it means serious money.

While I understood that the Atoma 140 seems to be a great solution for flattening the stones I still struggle a little with the fact how to treat (then additionally) the finer stones. There is a recommendation to use additionally a Nagura stone, my question now which Nagura stone? Would a Suehiro Nagura Stone, as sold by Sharpening Supplies, be the right solution?

Last but not least, is Sharpening Supplies a good address to get such products? As of my investigation they ship internationally and they respond to inquiries.

Thankful for every hint and advice I can get!

Herbert
 
The Vanadium Carbides in S35 and 20CV are harder than the Al203 in the Shapton Glass stones. They are also harder than the SiC “stones”. I would think that CBN or Diamond “stones” would prevent VC tear out. I have had really good results using Shapton Glass stones on ZDP-189 and CPM-154.
I use Venev bonded Diamond “stones” on blades which include Vanadium, Niobium, and Titanium Carbides.
 
You don't need a nagura stone with Shapton waterstones. You're just wearing down the stone.
With steels like that, I'd choose some diamond stones.
I don't know what your needs or are, so it's hard to comment. I will say that on the finer end you can also strop - a loaded strop with diamond compounds.
With finer stones I, after I flatten them I use a finer diamond plate to treat the surface. You really don't need to, I do it for the feel.
 
tiguy7 said:
The Vanadium Carbides in S35 and 20CV are harder than the Al203 in the Shapton Glass stones. They are also harder than the SiC “stones”. I would think that CBN or Diamond “stones” would prevent VC tear out. I have had really good results using Shapton Glass stones on ZDP-189 and CPM-154.
I use Venev bonded Diamond “stones” on blades which include Vanadium, Niobium, and Titanium Carbides.
Click to expand...

Not sure, but I think to remember I have read that blade steels with a Vanadium content up to around 4% are still feasible to grind with stones, while significantly higher Vanadium contents (~10%) then really can cause a problem.
S35 (3%) and 20CV (4%) could therefore still be considered feasible, correct me if I am wrong.

Herbert
 
Ourorboros said:
You don't need a nagura stone with Shapton waterstones. You're just wearing down the stone.
With steels like that, I'd choose some diamond stones.
I don't know what your needs or are, so it's hard to comment. I will say that on the finer end you can also strop - a loaded strop with diamond compounds.
With finer stones I, after I flatten them I use a finer diamond plate to treat the surface. You really don't need to, I do it for the feel.
Click to expand...

What grit of your finer diamond plate do you use to treat the surface? Also, seems some people use a Nagura stone to do exactly that, treat the surface after they flattened the stone with a diamond plate with coarser grit, for example the Atoma 140. Therefore my question regarding the Nagura stone.

My needs: A solution that allows me to sharpen as well the higher graded steels of pocket knifes as "ordinary" kitchen knifes; a grit progression that covers standard sharpening needs (dull edges, potential re-profiling, maintenance sharpening, refining, etc.).

Herbert
 
crowley213 said:
Not sure, but I think to remember I have read that blade steels with a Vanadium content up to around 4% are still feasible to grind with stones, while significantly higher Vanadium contents (~10%) then really can cause a problem.
S35 (3%) and 20CV (4%) could therefore still be considered feasible, correct me if I am wrong.

Herbert
Click to expand...
I couldn’t make sense of the notion that you can sharpen hard carbides on soft stones if the concentration is low. You will still be pushing the hard carbides around while shaping the matrix. Feasibility does not equal sharpened carbides on the micro edge which is what I am after. If a blade has a low hard carbide content, all the more reason to get them sharp and arrayed on the micro edge. There is no free lunch you use the wrong tool for the job.
 
T tiguy7

Sorry, you are right... while I seem to get old.

Reading and thinking a little bit more regarding the topic I finally remembered that we also used diamond grinding for high speed lathe tools already some 30+ years ago. These tools also had a Vanadium content in the range up to 5%. Again sorry, my bad!

Okay, so most likely change in plans! Changing over for a diamond solution for the pocket knife steels and looking for a also good but maybe more cost effective solution for all the other ordinary stuff. A quite interesting topic...!

Herbert
 
crowley213 said:
New here in the forum, also new to the topic of sharpening with stones, therefore a few questions.

At this moment I am looking for a solution to sharpen as well the higher quality steel blades of my ZT pocket knifes (CPM S35VN, CPM 20CV) as some "ordinary" kitchen knifes.

After reading a lot of reviews and forum posts, especially also here, I have come to the conclusion that I will go for the Shapton Glass Stones as sharpening stones and the Atoma 140 diamond plate flattening solution.

Nevertheless I still have a few questions:

Does a grit progression of 220, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000 and 8000 make sense, means will such a progression cover my needs (okay, what I think are my "needs")? Yes, it may sound like an overkill, but considering all these stones is based on my thinking that I would like to have a solution that really covers all my needs and the fact that going for whatever solution step by step means some logistical drawbacks for me as I am not living in the U.S. (shipping cost, custom fees, ec.). Therefore I would like to go at this moment for a really complete solution, even it means serious money.

While I understood that the Atoma 140 seems to be a great solution for flattening the stones I still struggle a little with the fact how to treat (then additionally) the finer stones. There is a recommendation to use additionally a Nagura stone, my question now which Nagura stone? Would a Suehiro Nagura Stone, as sold by Sharpening Supplies, be the right solution?

Last but not least, is Sharpening Supplies a good address to get such products? As of my investigation they ship internationally and they respond to inquiries.

Thankful for every hint and advice I can get!

Herbert
Click to expand...


I am said individual that recommends the use of a Nagura stone after the Atoma 140 but only for stones beyond 1k. Is it truly needed? probably not but it does take away the deep gouges from the 140 and leaves the surface of finer stones feeling much better. And yes, that nagura is fine, as is the site you are looking to purchase from. I've purchased from them many times.

Ideal stones to purchase from the Shapton Glass line.
500 extra thick
2000
16,000

FYI, I have all but the 10k and 30k and still only use the 500, 2000 and 16,000. They just work.

And like has been mentioned, The Shapton glass stones are good but diamond stones are needed for any steel with 4% or more vanadium. For diamond stones I would select the Atoma 140 for lapping and occasional edge repair then I would add a DMT Coarse and DMT Extra fine. Finish it all off with a strop coated in 1 micron diamond compound and you will be able to sharpen pretty much any edged tool you encounter.
 
Jason B. Jason B.

Jason, thank you very much for your helpful and informative reply. Yes, I referred to one of our posts regarding the Nagura stone.

Hope you don't mind if I ask some additional questions:

As of your opinion and experience, are diamond stones also mandatory (necessary) considering just CPM S35VN (Zero Tolerance blades)? S35VN "only" has 3% of Vanadium and I saw a posting from you where you stated that Shapton Glass works great with this specific material. Or was this statement only valid for coarser grits?

Considering some more aesthetic aspects like more polished grinding, would the DMT Extra Extra Fine (8000) also "make sense"? Additionally, what about the Shapton Glass 4000 considering a more fine grinding but still not really polished, for example for steak knives? Okay, maybe I miss something and I am wrong, or it's just "geek" thinking, but considering these both stones I also would get a nice grit progression from coarse to fine polished for my sharpening tasks.

As I do not want to buy in different stores for the logistic aspect, is the Jende Poly Diamond Emulsion, as sold by Sharpening Supplies, a reasonable solution for stropping?

Last but not least, at this moment the SG 16000 is out of stock at Sharpening Supplies, so I will need to wait with that one. But that should not be a real problem at this moment.

Again, thanks for your advice and support, I really appreciate it.

Herbert
 
View attachment 1361653
crowley213 said:
Jason B. Jason B.

Jason, thank you very much for your helpful and informative reply. Yes, I referred to one of our posts regarding the Nagura stone.

Hope you don't mind if I ask some additional questions:

As of your opinion and experience, are diamond stones also mandatory (necessary) considering just CPM S35VN (Zero Tolerance blades)? S35VN "only" has 3% of Vanadium and I saw a posting from you where you stated that Shapton Glass works great with this specific material. Or was this statement only valid for coarser grits?

Considering some more aesthetic aspects like more polished grinding, would the DMT Extra Extra Fine (8000) also "make sense"? Additionally, what about the Shapton Glass 4000 considering a more fine grinding but still not really polished, for example for steak knives? Okay, maybe I miss something and I am wrong, or it's just "geek" thinking, but considering these both stones I also would get a nice grit progression from coarse to fine polished for my sharpening tasks.

As I do not want to buy in different stores for the logistic aspect, is the Jende Poly Diamond Emulsion, as sold by Sharpening Supplies, a reasonable solution for stropping?

Last but not least, at this moment the SG 16000 is out of stock at Sharpening Supplies, so I will need to wait with that one. But that should not be a real problem at this moment.

Again, thanks for your advice and support, I really appreciate it.

Herbert
Click to expand...

DMT makes an 8"X2.6" double sided Diamond "stone" that is supposed to have wear resistance superior to their regular product line. The grits on the Hard Coat stone are 600 and 1200 (25 and 9 microns). This stone could let you dip your toes in the Diamond pool. This outfit is also available in a folding pocket model.
 
crowley213 said:
What grit of your finer diamond plate do you use to treat the surface? Also, seems some people use a Nagura stone to do exactly that, treat the surface after they flattened the stone with a diamond plate with coarser grit, for example the Atoma 140. Therefore my question regarding the Nagura stone.
Herbert
Click to expand...
People also use nagura stones to generate mud, which isn't needed for Shapton stones.
For fine stones, I use the 300 mesh side of a diamond stone.

Needs - some people like a toothy edge, some like a fine edge.
For kitchen knives, I'm a push cutter/chopper and many of my knives are polished in excess of 10K. If you pull cut or process a lot of meat that probably won't work so well for you. A toothy edge that is stropped might be a better option.
For edc do you cut ties or string/rope on a surface or free hanging (grabbing the loose end)? Different edges. Well it's not like toothy won't work for either, but if it's hanging you'll like toothy more.
 
tiguy7 said:
View attachment 1361653

DMT makes an 8"X2.6" double sided Diamond "stone" that is supposed to have wear resistance superior to their regular product line. The grits on the Hard Coat stone are 600 and 1200 (25 and 9 microns). This stone could let you dip your toes in the Diamond pool. This outfit is also available in a folding pocket model.
Click to expand...

T tiguy7 , thank you very much for the information.

I already know the DMT pool a little, I have the DMT Aligner Pro kit. Not bad, but not what I consider a more sophisticated solution.

If I have to go for diamond plates for my S35VN and 20CV plates I will most likely go for the DMT Dia-Sharp plates. It's just subjective, but I don't like the interrupted surface, sometimes it hooks up on the blades, especially at the tips. Therefore I prefer a continuous surface, being aware of their specific drawbacks also.

Herbert
 
Ourorboros said:
People also use nagura stones to generate mud, which isn't needed for Shapton stones.
For fine stones, I use the 300 mesh side of a diamond stone.

Needs - some people like a toothy edge, some like a fine edge.
For kitchen knives, I'm a push cutter/chopper and many of my knives are polished in excess of 10K. If you pull cut or process a lot of meat that probably won't work so well for you. A toothy edge that is stropped might be a better option.
For edc do you cut ties or string/rope on a surface or free hanging (grabbing the loose end)? Different edges. Well it's not like toothy won't work for either, but if it's hanging you'll like toothy more.
Click to expand...

O Ourorboros , thank you very much for the information.

To be honest, I am still learning about how different type of sharpening affects different type of usage. But again, I am still a newbie to this topic and will have to learn and gain my experience in here like everybody else. Therefore I am thankful for all such information, tips and advice.

Honestly, I will first need to pay more attention how I cut different things, until now I just used a knife without a lot of thinking in such details. Let's see what I find out over time. At this moment I would say I am more pull cutter, at least considering kitchen knifes, but I may be wrong.

Herbert
 
crowley213 said:
Jason B. Jason B.

Jason, thank you very much for your helpful and informative reply. Yes, I referred to one of our posts regarding the Nagura stone.

Hope you don't mind if I ask some additional questions:

As of your opinion and experience, are diamond stones also mandatory (necessary) considering just CPM S35VN (Zero Tolerance blades)? S35VN "only" has 3% of Vanadium and I saw a posting from you where you stated that Shapton Glass works great with this specific material. Or was this statement only valid for coarser grits?

Yes, diamond stones are necessary. Shapton Glass stones are ceramic abrasive so they have some greater abilities than other common waterstones but they still have a limit. The 4% vanadium rule is just scratching the surface, other elements and their % will factor in, such as the Niobium also found in S35VN which is a hard and small carbide former. Grit plays a role too, most coarse stones will sharpen most any steel but as you start progressing to finer grits and the carbides start getting closer to the size of the abrasive the grinding action will turn into polishing/burnishing due to the blade steel actually polishing the abrasive in the stone. This is why diamonds are used when the alloy content starts becoming complex. Diamonds are WAY harder than any of the carbides in the steel and will provide proper apex formation.

Considering some more aesthetic aspects like more polished grinding, would the DMT Extra Extra Fine (8000) also "make sense"? Additionally, what about the Shapton Glass 4000 considering a more fine grinding but still not really polished, for example for steak knives? Okay, maybe I miss something and I am wrong, or it's just "geek" thinking, but considering these both stones I also would get a nice grit progression from coarse to fine polished for my sharpening tasks.

Personally, the DMT Coarse and a strop with 1 micron diamond is about as good as it gets for high alloy steels. The sharpness, cutting power and ease of maintenance to this simple edge at times makes me question using anything else.

As I do not want to buy in different stores for the logistic aspect, is the Jende Poly Diamond Emulsion, as sold by Sharpening Supplies, a reasonable solution for stropping?

As long as it is a known brand they are all good. I even like the DMT 1 and 3 micron paste. That said, sprays are much easier to use and reapply.

Last but not least, at this moment the SG 16000 is out of stock at Sharpening Supplies, so I will need to wait with that one. But that should not be a real problem at this moment.

While there is a fair amount of difference between a strop and a stone... a strop with 1 micron compound is basically the same grit and can make that 2k edge very mirror like. FYI, The Glass Stones are stones that polish as they sharpen and because of this you need to spend the time on the stone to get the most out of it. As the removed metal builds on the stone you will be able to watch the polish on the bevel become more and more. It will also yield an edge that needs no stropping, the 2k, if done right will be sharper than many other methods while using far less steps.

Again, thanks for your advice and support, I really appreciate it.

:thumbsup:

Herbert
Click to expand...

Reply in bold ^
 
Jason B. Jason B.

Thank you very much again for the additional explanations. I have placed now the orders for the recommended products, I even found the suggested SG set including the 16,000 grit stone.

So let’s wait until the products arrive and from there I will go, most likely with some additional questions.

Herbert
 
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