Shapton Glass Stone Flattening - DMT "Coarse" enough?

aleforme · Dec 22, 2017

Thinking about trying out some Shapton Glass Stones. Probably the standard 500 and 2K combo. I don't need or desire to have a mirror edge. Just a good working edge. I can always got up to the 4K or 8K down the road if needed.

My question is this. Would my DMT "Coarse" DouSharp be enough to use for flattening? It's the non continuous version.

If not, guess I would probably get the Atoma 140 or possibly the cheaper option in the Norton Flattening Stone. I know those will work but jut cusious about the DMT Coarse.

I have a love my Baryonyx Manticor stone so if I could get away with the DMT Coarse or Norton, that would be great. The Manticore cuts like a beast.

Thanks

David Martin · Dec 22, 2017

ale, I would not use the DMT coarse to flatten aluminum oxide. Your second suggestion would work but slow. A Norton coarse SiC would work decently. Get the 2X8 for 20$. Or the Norton flattening stone you mention. The Norton coarse will give you Many more uses, that stone sharpeners need. DM

Jason B. · Dec 22, 2017

No, and you will need a diamond plate but the Coarse DMT is not it. The Shapton's would ruin it in short order.

I would recommend the Atoma 140 because it simply works best. The Shapton's need good surface texture or they simply don't work and this is why the diamond plate is so important. The Shapton's are also very hard ceramic so normal lapping stones would glaze over quickly and likely damage the Shapton's.

Wowbagger · Dec 23, 2017

aleforme said:
Shapton Glass Stones. Probably the standard 500 and 2K combo. I don't need or desire to have a mirror edge. Just a good working edge. I can always got up to the 4K or 8K down the road if needed.

My question is this. Would my DMT "Coarse" DouSharp be enough to use for flattening? It's the non continuous version.

as they say YMMV

The only Shapton Glass stones I have are for the Edge Pro. I flatten those on the DMT with the dimples all the time and the DMT still cuts the hell out of my S110V knives to reprofile VERY EASILY.

This is a very old Coarse Extra Coarse.

It has done a whole lot of stone flattening along with a whole lot of reprofiling wood working tools in A2.
I would say it is still HIGLY EFFECTIVE and no where near worn let alone worn out.

The pink stone with the deep channels shown with the S110V Spydercos is a stone designed and built to flatten other sharpening stones such as the water stones. Guess what ? It wasn't flat when i got it and I had to flatten it on the DMT. It's not a softy I guuuuuurrrrrenteeee. It is a ceramic stone. I believe it is zirconia alumina but couldn't find one on line right now.

The DMT flattened all these various water stones until I got the Shapton Pros and then it flattened the Pros.
I guess they aren't all that a Glass stone is but I'm just saying.

I use this Shapton Pro 120 white stone way too much to flatten and polish the sides of knives I have modded the heck out of. XHP and 3V so it gets a good work out and needs flattening after. (the "white" stone above is actually a Shapton 15,000 so the DMT has a lot of stones to flatten.)

Sorry too many photos but . . .

THEEEEEEEE scariest stone I ever flattened on it, mostly just freshened the surface of, after my A2 blades glazed . . . nay . . . polished the stone . . . was this Hard Arkansas stone. I don't like taking the diamond plate to it because it FEELS so dang hard and unforgiving. Obviously it isn't "all that" because the A2 just kicked its butt.

I suppose the Glass stones are extra mother but I wouldn't underestimate the DMT.
At least mine is a good one and it is super flat as well ! ! ! !

Jason B. · Dec 23, 2017

The interrupted DMT stones seem to be a little tougher in lapping chores and are used by many but the game changes with the Glass stones. The Glass stones are dependent on their surface prep and because they are extremely hard stones the choice of diamond plate for lapping is critical.

The reason for the recommendation of the Atoma 140 is because it needs to be coarser than 300 grit to get proper surface texture on the SG500 and the raised diamond clusters of the Atoma are ideal for lapping. Because of these raised diamond clusters even the Atoma 400 can be used and provides great surface prep but at the cost of lapping speed, it's simply more efficient to use the 140.

This is coming from someone with a nearly full line of Shapton products including the Pond, Holder and Diamond Glass Lapping Plate (DGLP) which is nice but next time I will just buy 4 Atoma 140's.

tiguy7 · Dec 23, 2017

View attachment 818197 Shapton says to use the Atoma 140 mesh dresser on stones below 500 mesh. They also recommend the 270-325 Shapton Diamond Glass Lapping Plate for stones 500 mesh and up. The Extra Coarse DMT is 220 mesh, and the Coarse DMT is 325 mesh. My only Shapton below 500 is 220.

aleforme · Dec 23, 2017

Wow, thanks for all the responses. Since my DMT is only a Coarse, I'll probably just spring for the Atoma. The Shapton flattening stones look awesome but they are really pricey.

Thanks again. Much appreciated!

JJ_Colt45 · Dec 23, 2017

I found myself asking the same question not so long ago and took Jason's advice and went with the Atoma 140 for the Shapton Glass stones ... was a great choice Jason lead me right there it's been easy to keep then flat with the Atoma.

aleforme · Dec 26, 2017

JJ_Colt45 said:
I found myself asking the same question not so long ago and took Jason's advice and went with the Atoma 140 for the Shapton Glass stones ... was a great choice Jason lead me right there it's been easy to keep then flat with the Atoma.

That's good to hear. I think I'll just go with the Atoma and not mess around with other options.

jc57 · Dec 26, 2017

DMT used to recommend using only their XXC (120 mesh) Dia-sharp plates for flattening. But they have changed that to where they now only recommend their Dia-flat products (available in 120 mesh and 160 mesh) for flattening waterstones.

I personally use an Atoma 140 for my Shapton Pros. Does a good job.

aleforme · Dec 26, 2017

Jason B. said:
The interrupted DMT stones seem to be a little tougher in lapping chores and are used by many but the game changes with the Glass stones. The Glass stones are dependent on their surface prep and because they are extremely hard stones the choice of diamond plate for lapping is critical.

The reason for the recommendation of the Atoma 140 is because it needs to be coarser than 300 grit to get proper surface texture on the SG500 and the raised diamond clusters of the Atoma are ideal for lapping. Because of these raised diamond clusters even the Atoma 400 can be used and provides great surface prep but at the cost of lapping speed, it's simply more efficient to use the 140.

This is coming from someone with a nearly full line of Shapton products including the Pond, Holder and Diamond Glass Lapping Plate (DGLP) which is nice but next time I will just buy 4 Atoma 140's.

Hey Jason, Given that I won't be going lower than the Glass 500, would the Atoma 400 be better? Less surface texture produced than the 140?

Jason B. · Dec 27, 2017

aleforme said:
Hey Jason, Given that I won't be going lower than the Glass 500, would the Atoma 400 be better? Less surface texture produced than the 140?

I would stick with the 140. The 400 might be slightly better to texture the 2000 but the difference is minimal. The 140 is also a better steel hog which is very nice to have for damaged edges and hard alloy steels.

maximus83 · Dec 27, 2017

Jason B. said:
I would stick with the 140. The 400 might be slightly better to texture the 2000 but the difference is minimal. The 140 is also a better steel hog which is very nice to have for damaged edges and hard alloy steels.

+1. I've been using my 140 for flattening and profiling, I flip back and forth between it and my Norton Crystolon, but the 140 cuts really clean and fast.

Another nice thing to note about the design of these plates for folks that don't have them yet: they are an aluminum plate (not steel) with the abrasive being stuck on there with an adhesive. Meaning: if you start with the 140 plate, and later want to add one of their other Atoma grits, you can buy just the adhesive-backed grit and stick it on the other side of the plate.

aleforme · Dec 27, 2017

Jason B. said:
I would stick with the 140. The 400 might be slightly better to texture the 2000 but the difference is minimal. The 140 is also a better steel hog which is very nice to have for damaged edges and hard alloy steels.

Awesome, thanks. I just wanted to make sure.

aleforme · Dec 27, 2017

maximus83 said:
+1. I've been using my 140 for flattening and profiling, I flip back and forth between it and my Norton Crystolon, but the 140 cuts really clean and fast.

Another nice thing to note about the design of these plates for folks that don't have them yet: they are an aluminum plate (not steel) with the abrasive being stuck on there with an adhesive. Meaning: if you start with the 140 plate, and later want to add one of their other Atoma grits, you can buy just the adhesive-backed grit and stick it on the other side of the plate.

Good point. I noticed that when I saw the price difference on the Atoma 140. The Diamond bonded plate vs just the adhesive backed grit sheet. Cool feature with the Atomas.

Wowbagger · Dec 27, 2017

The Atoma must be truly great. Maybe I need one.
I don't know.
Maybe the Shapton Glass stones for the Edge Pro are not "Real" glass stones.
I was sharpening my M4 with this Edge Pro Shapton stone. Evidently it is cutting the blade with all that swarf on the stone there.

I cleaned and flattened the stones on the Coarse side of the Coarse / Extra Coarse DMT.
Sure is taking off significant amounts of the stone pretty easily. See all that white slurry.

I guess I will wait for something bad to happen.
And yes the price of the plates for use with the loose grit is just insain and I hate loose grit for lapping or sharpening. One would have to pay ME to use that stuff.

jc57 · Dec 28, 2017

Wowbagger said:
The Atoma must be truly great. Maybe I need one.
I don't know.

Not necessarily. If your DMT is working for you, that's fine. Lots of people flatten water stones using $20 SiC "stone dressers." There are $30 diamond flattening plates that people swear by. DMT basically is saying, if you use their products other than their "hardcoat Dia-flat" plates for flattening water stones, that they won't honor any warranty claims for that usage. Doesn't mean they won't work.

Heck, I used my DMT coarse (325) blue-polka-dot 6" hone to flatten and recondition some Arkansas stones. It definitely produced some milky rock paste. I don't know how much it may have affected the life of that DMT coarse hone, though. I don't use it often enough to tell you.

When I was getting into water stones for the first time, everywhere you looked, people praised the Atoma 140 so that's what I got. It does work quite well on my Shapton Pro stones and several other brands. Since what I bought first works, I haven't kept looking. If what you have now works, there is no need to keep looking.

James Lewis · Dec 28, 2017

The DMT stones wear extremely fast when using it as a flattener. I wore out a DMT in a matter of weeks when flattening my Naniwa and Suehiro stones... IMO, the Dia-flat was DMTs excuse to upsell customers from the original DMT stones.

Jason B. · Dec 29, 2017

Wowbagger

Nothing wrong with the DMT plates but by using a Coarse 325 mesh to lap the SG500 you are reducing the effectiveness of the SG500. The diamond plate is not Coarse enough to give proper surface texture and you end up with a 500 grit waterstone that acts more like a glazed 1000.

James Lewis · Dec 29, 2017

I typically lap my stones with a 400 grit Atoma which doubles for reprofiling my knives.