Shapton vs. Diamond?

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NeedItCheaper

Joined
Jun 17, 2012
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Currently, I'm using a Trend 300/1000 which are said to be sharper than DMT plates and last 3x longer. I Specifically want to know if stroke for stroke, which lasts longer? I realize my Trend stone/plate will cut faster, and it has at this point outlasted my DMT plate, but if I get say 2,000 strokes from sharpening with 3V knives... At 120$ per Trend plate, I might be better off buying two Shapton Glass stones for less than 100$. My Trend stone is still good, but I'm a shopaholic and using this post to stop me from buying right now.

And if you've never used a Trend stone, then compare it to any diamond stone you've used.


Edit; deleted useless information.
 
There are people who have DMTs that are a couple decades old that are still working fine. If another brand claims to last 3xs longer then great! But IMO it's all marketing fluff. It really all comes down to how you take care of it, and how much pressure you use. I've been using the same Sharpal diamond stone for a couple years now, and it still works great. Have a DMT 220 grit that is awesome as well. I don't think I'll completely wear any of them out, but if I do they are inexpensive and easily replaced.
 
I think the last longer thing is looking for the sweet spot. One may hold up better under higher pressure than the other. So they test it with those parameters. I have dmts and atomas. I can't complain about any of them under normal use. Like everything though nothing will last forever.
 
soc_monki said:
There are people who have DMTs that are a couple decades old that are still working fine. If another brand claims to last 3xs longer then great! But IMO it's all marketing fluff. It really all comes down to how you take care of it, and how much pressure you use. I've been using the same Sharpal diamond stone for a couple years now, and it still works great. Have a DMT 220 grit that is awesome as well. I don't think I'll completely wear any of them out, but if I do they are inexpensive and easily replaced.
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Have you spent considerable time sharpening 3V with them? And after two years, has the DMT 220 grit lost any sharpness?
 
What's special about sharpening 3V? I haven't found anything about it out of the ordinary, whether I have used ceramics or diamond hones.
 
The very extensive grinding that might prematurely or excessively wear down a diamond plate (of any brand) is of the sort that only needs to be done once or twice for a given knife in its lifetime. If it's done in the course of rebevelling a very thick edge to good geometry at the beginning, all subsequent resharpening jobs should only exert very minimal use of pressure at a minimal number of passes, and therefore shouldn't induce much wear on the diamond plate at all. For this reason, for most knife hobbyists like us, there's very little reason to expect a diamond plate to wear out completely in anything less than many years at least, or even decades.

If one is wearing out a diamond plate in very short time, they're either (1) heavily grinding a ton of blades (hundreds or more), (2) using far too much pressure, or (3) removing far too much steel with each resharpening.
 
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Blues said:
What's special about sharpening 3V? I haven't found anything about it out of the ordinary, whether I have used ceramics or diamond hones.
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Could be completely mistaken by my experience, but my DMT stone was fine with 1095, 5160, and D2 knives. Only became less effective than silicon carbide stone after reprofiling a 3V knife. Took many hours to get an Ambush Alpha (now named Bravo Alpha) the way I wanted. I really could be mistaken because it was years ago and these days I have more care and patience with light strokes, cleaning the stone/plate, consistent oil, etc. Never-the-less, there's an answer to the question. Per stroke, what lasts longer, assuming proper care is taken for both? Edit; Also, my newish diamond stone, is still going strong. Experience could've changed how I sharpen and that's the only reason I'm seeing a longer lasting diamond stone.


Edit; sorry, incomplete post. Went back and edited it twice.
 
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Blues said:
I vote #2 as being by far the most common culprit.
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Me too. Even for myself, calibrating my use of pressure was the most difficult lesson to learn while getting adjusted to diamond hones. But once it clicked, I also found that lighter touch to be a boon in my use of other stone types as well. Everything in sharpening fell into place for me, after that. :thumbsup:
 
NeedItCheaper said:
Compared to sharpening 1095, it seems to take much longer thus smoothing out the stone faster. Could be completely mistaken by my experience, but my DMT stone was fine with 1095, 5160, and D2 knives. Only became less effective than silicon carbide stone after reprofiling a 3V knife. Took many hours to get an Ambush Alpha (now named Bravo Alpha) the way I wanted. I really could be mistaken because it was years ago and these days I have more care and more patients with light strokes, cleaning the stone/plate, consistent oil, etc. Never-the-less, there's an answer to the question. Per stroke, what lasts longer, assuming proper care is taken for both?
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I rarely use diamond on 1095 and related carbon steels... though I have.

If you had no problem with D2, I don't think you should have any trouble with 3V with your diamond hones...unless there was an issue with the diamond plate (previous to the sharpening of the 3V blade) or a heat treat issue.

I generally prefer using ceramic, (including Shapton Glass stones), to diamond unless I'm dealing with a high carbide steel. But I enjoy using both.

I employ some "lower end" diamond hones that I've had for a long time, as well as DMT, Eze Lap, and bonded diamond hones from Venev and Edge Pro.

Light strokes with the diamond hones...to allow the diamond to do the work.
 
Blues said:
I rarely use diamond on 1095 and related carbon steels... though I have.

If you had no problem with D2, I don't think you should have any trouble with 3V with your diamond hones...unless there was an issue with the diamond plate (previous to the sharpening of the 3V blade) or a heat treat issue.

I generally prefer using ceramic, (including Shapton Glass stones), to diamond unless I'm dealing with a high carbide steel. But I enjoy using both.

I employ some "lower end" diamond hones that I've had for a long time, as well as DMT, Eze Lap, and bonded diamond hones from Venev and Edge Pro.

Light strokes with the diamond hones...to allow the diamond to do the work.
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I edited to late, sorry about that. Message is the same though. I'll probably get some of those Shapton stones at some point. Thankyou.
 
I have a 4 inch Smiths diamond hand sharpener that is over 10 years in use and is still useful but starting to diminish some. I’ve seen some that didn’t last but a month or so at work. The reason is they used to much pressure and that pops and chips the diamonds off to the sub strat. Diamonds cut much faster and with little pressure will remove more steel than conventional stones. I use my diamond sharpeners for all my knives in 1095, 420hc, s30v, 20cv and other popular premium stainless and haven’t had any problems. I firmly believe the sharpening technic used is responsible for the effectiveness and longevity of the diamond type sharpening plates and to achieve a good sharp edged blade.
 
soc_monki said:
If another brand claims to last 3xs longer then great! But IMO it's all marketing fluff.
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This was from a reviewer, and I didn't think about the claim. I looked up the materials for Trend and DMT and they both monocrystalline diamonds, so I'd say they are mistaken. Cost about the same, so not really a waste. But still, not likely to blow the DMT stones out the water.
 
NeedItCheaper said:
Have you spent considerable time sharpening 3V with them? And after two years, has the DMT 220 grit lost any sharpness?
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Not 3v, but cruwear and z wear. Also s90v, S30V, 20cv. At first the 220 was very rough and hard to sharpen with, but after break in it is a pleasure and works very quickly. Have been using it for over a year now, my Sharpal stones for longer than that. It's all in how you use the tools.
 
NeedItCheaper said:
This was from a reviewer, and I didn't think about the claim. I looked up the materials for Trend and DMT and they both monocrystalline diamonds, so I'd say they are mistaken. Cost about the same, so not really a waste. But still, not likely to blow the DMT stones out the water.
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If it was a reviewer than I would take the claims with a grain of salt. I've seen reviews where people complain about the diamonds wearing out with 2 to 3 knives and I just think "you're using too much pressure..."

I always hold my stones in my hand while sharpening, and it helps alleviate the pressure problem.
 
soc_monki said:
If it was a reviewer than I would take the claims with a grain of salt. I've seen reviews where people complain about the diamonds wearing out with 2 to 3 knives and I just think "you're using too much pressure..."

I always hold my stones in my hand while sharpening, and it helps alleviate the pressure problem.
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How can they wear out diamonds with steel? That does not make any sense to me. Maybe they are dislodging them from the media in which they were bound, and thinking they "wore them out"? I would think that diamonds versus steel would have the steel losing every time. 🤔
 
Sharp Steel said:
How can they wear out diamonds with steel? That does not make any sense to me. Maybe they are dislodging them from the media in which they were bound, and thinking they "wore them out"? I would think that diamonds versus steel would have the steel losing every time. 🤔
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One issue is the diamond dislodging from the media as you say, especially with diamond plate and heavy pressure. The other issue is that diamond, whilst being very hard, is also brittle and tends to break with repeated use resulting in smaller bits of diamond and revealing other diamond fragments and so on.
 
Sharp Steel said:
How can they wear out diamonds with steel? That does not make any sense to me. Maybe they are dislodging them from the media in which they were bound, and thinking they "wore them out"? I would think that diamonds versus steel would have the steel losing every time. 🤔
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Plated diamonds can be scraped off the steel plate. Also, wearing them down from too much pressure. Diamonds are brittle and break. That's why diamond plates get smoother over time and act like a higher grit than they are. Like my 220 grit stone, it was rough when I got it, but now is worn down a little and feels smoother, but still works aggressively. Gotta break in those diamonds.
 
AssUming the diamonds are not total garbage then the main "wear" is pulling them from the bond while sharpening. Diamond crystals have a high energy surface making them difficult to adhere to, which puts even more importance on the bond. The best bond for plated diamonds is a nickel alloy with reactive metals that is vacuum brazed. With this bond, you can specify how much of the crystal you want to be exposed, say 50% to 80%. Even with this bond pulling the diamonds out is far more common than the diamond crystals breaking down. The only time I had problems with the crystals shearing off at the bond line was when the company plating my tools used inferior diamonds. Diamonds in cutting tools are like steel for knives, there is a huge difference between the cheap stuff and the expensive stuff, and like most stones, the bond often makes a far bigger difference than the abrasive in how well the stone or plate works or how long it lasts, kind of like the heat treating. Besides the overall quality of the diamond crystals you can get harder and brittle or tougher but not quite as wear resistant.

With your budget plated diamond stones, like DMT, breaking in a plate is simply removing the proudest diamonds, and nickel, leaving a smoother surface. I really doubt you are fracturing the crystals to even out the surface.
 
Diemaker said:
AssUming the diamonds are not total garbage then the main "wear" is pulling them from the bond while sharpening. Diamond crystals have a high energy surface making them difficult to adhere to, which puts even more importance on the bond. The best bond for plated diamonds is a nickel alloy with reactive metals that is vacuum brazed. With this bond, you can specify how much of the crystal you want to be exposed, say 50% to 80%. Even with this bond pulling the diamonds out is far more common than the diamond crystals breaking down. The only time I had problems with the crystals shearing off at the bond line was when the company plating my tools used inferior diamonds. Diamonds in cutting tools are like steel for knives, there is a huge difference between the cheap stuff and the expensive stuff, and like most stones, the bond often makes a far bigger difference than the abrasive in how well the stone or plate works or how long it lasts, kind of like the heat treating. Besides the overall quality of the diamond crystals you can get harder and brittle or tougher but not quite as wear resistant.

With your budget plated diamond stones, like DMT, breaking in a plate is simply removing the proudest diamonds, and nickel, leaving a smoother surface. I really doubt you are fracturing the crystals to even out the surface.
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i agree with this, if not mistaken todds SoS website showed a jnat slurry doesnt even break down into finer particle sizes, only the soft binder started to flake. so to believe a diamond would break down is like believing in santa clause. as you stated, the diamonds that are processed bad, probably risk fracture at points. otherwise it would be a little crazy to think a natural stone doesnt break down while honing, but a diamond would. im sure with dimensions on each diamond on a plate todd could keep focus on one cluster over time and give answers if the diamond particle itself loses material and gets "wore" or if it just sheers it from the plating. also has anyone actually ever SEM a photo of the scratch pattern with both a wore and fairly fresh(meaning all the huge anomalies have a chance to get punched off the plating)diamond plate. my guess is the scratches look fairly similar, but a plate with less diamonds of course will show less of those scratches.
 
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